polsci-120122-progesterone-1.vtt

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.640
 Hi everyone, the following show with Dr. Raymond Peat was recorded on January 22, 2012. It's

00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:14.960
 about progesterone. And a growing number of shows can be found at the Radio 4 All website,

00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:23.040
 that's radionumeralforall.net, and then search for "Politics and Science."

00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:28.280
 Welcome to "Politics and Science." I'm your host, John Barkhausen, and today, once again,

00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:33.600
 I'm delighted to say that Ray Peat is here to join me, Dr. Raymond Peat. Dr. Peat has

00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:42.720
 a PhD in biology and has done extensive research in the fields of physiology and endocrinology.

00:00:42.720 --> 00:00:45.400
 Is that enough, Ray? Oh, that's enough.

00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:50.940
 That's enough, okay. That's enough for me. And I was just saying that we've never really

00:00:50.940 --> 00:00:57.020
 touched on the subject in the pure form of progesterone. And I was looking back through

00:00:57.020 --> 00:01:03.560
 your newsletters, for those who don't know, Ray Peat has a website, raypeat.com, where

00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:08.280
 he's posted a lot of your newsletters. What percent of your letters are up there at this

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 point, Ray? I've written 300 and some, and I think there

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 are only about 75 on the website, so about a quarter.

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 There's so much knowledge in each one, and plenty of food for thought, even if you don't

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 agree with what you're putting forward. I find I can read them many times, and they

00:01:30.520 --> 00:01:35.360
 always seem new because there's so much information packed into them. So they're all there for

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 people just to enjoy when you want to do it. Yeah, the search, the little search device

00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:47.760
 on the website helps to find, for example, if you put in progesterone, you'll find lots

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 and lots of newsletters that talk about it. That's right. And the newsletters, I started

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 off with one, but there were actually three almost in a row that you did in 2007, dealing

00:02:00.520 --> 00:02:09.160
 with progesterone and the regulation of progesterone, which is starting to happen then. And I thought

00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:14.120
 maybe we could start the show, unless you had a better idea, just talking about how

00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:22.120
 you first got interested in progesterone. Yeah, I had been writing about it somewhat

00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:30.320
 in the 70s, but this Proposition 65 thing in California, calling it a carcinogen, that

00:02:30.320 --> 00:02:38.720
 was the occasion for me writing this new bunch of newsletters a few years ago. But I had

00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:48.320
 been studying, oh, linguistics was what I was studying right before I came to Oregon,

00:02:48.320 --> 00:02:57.360
 and moving from Mexico to Montana and then Oregon, I noticed a great change in the way

00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:07.520
 my health worked and realized that it was the absence of sunlight, dark cloudy weather.

00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:14.160
 I saw the same thing happening to all the women I knew during the winter, especially

00:03:14.160 --> 00:03:23.080
 students who came from sunny areas and then lived in dark student apartments during the

00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:32.120
 winter. They would get PMS and I called it winter sickness, a whole range of things,

00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:41.720
 but especially PMS was outstanding. And at that time, I was aware of the old experiments

00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:49.120
 and observations in which birds, for example, in Times Square, people have noticed that

00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:59.080
 the sparrows mate all year round because of the bright lights. And what in other species,

00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:04.760
 for example, there are animals that can mate during the winter, but they don't really

00:04:04.760 --> 00:04:12.680
 get pregnant until about March 20th when days become longer than nights. And what happens

00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:20.960
 in that situation is that the embryo is formed, but it doesn't implant in the uterus until

00:04:20.960 --> 00:04:31.560
 the progesterone reaches a certain level and light is the certain day length of light exposure

00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:41.880
 that raises the progesterone and allows fertility to proceed. And I was interested in that because

00:04:41.880 --> 00:04:54.440
 I noticed that during bright, sunny, long days, my vitamin A requirement increased tremendously.

00:04:54.440 --> 00:05:04.480
 And I gradually came to understand that the sex hormones go up in the spring with long

00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:14.760
 hours of light and vitamin A is massively used in producing pregnenolone and progesterone.

00:05:14.760 --> 00:05:25.000
 And so right at the beginning of moving to Oregon before I actually began attending the

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 university, I was seeing that progesterone and daylight were very powerful on the emotions

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 and body functions. The premenstrual mood changes were evident even in men. Typically,

00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:59.560
 men coming from a sunny climate would be depressed all winter living in cloudy Oregon.

00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:04.800
 How did you link sunlight to progesterone? Was it something that was already discovered

00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:06.760
 or were you working on that?

00:06:06.760 --> 00:06:16.240
 Yeah, it was one night I went to sleep reading a book with a bright light shining in my face

00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:23.120
 and I woke up starting to get pimples and I realized that just the light shining on

00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:33.240
 my eyes activating my brain had done something to affect my metabolism and in trying to understand

00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:41.720
 how the light affected my skin even though it was just mild incandescent light. That

00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:50.640
 was what I started rereading and I ran across the winter fertility of sparrows from bright

00:06:50.640 --> 00:07:02.640
 light and the springtime implantation of animals. So I realized that everyone from birds to

00:07:02.640 --> 00:07:15.120
 men experience the driving of their hormones by daylight and the first steroid made is

00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.480
 either pregnenolone or progesterone.

00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:23.940
 And do you think, you said that people coming from southern climates experience depression

00:07:23.940 --> 00:07:29.140
 coming north and I've noticed that among friends of mine who have done that. Do you think there's

00:07:29.140 --> 00:07:34.760
 an adjustment that's made whereby even with less light you can produce progesterone or

00:07:34.760 --> 00:07:38.640
 all of us in the north are depressed for that reason?

00:07:38.640 --> 00:07:48.120
 Yeah we just get used to being depressed. If you look at Scandinavian movies you see

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 that depression seems to be the rule.

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 The Bergman approach to life.

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 So when did you become aware that progesterone was useful therapeutically for cancer and

00:08:05.960 --> 00:08:09.040
 other things?

00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:18.420
 I started, I was intending to study nerve biology and the very first few weeks at the

00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:28.780
 university I realized what dogmatists the brain and nerve biology people were. So I

00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:39.140
 just went looking around poking into all the labs at the university and saw that the reproductive

00:08:39.140 --> 00:08:48.980
 physiology people were open-minded and actually studying things rather than trying to confirm

00:08:48.980 --> 00:08:58.140
 their dogma. And so I immediately switched over from nerve biology to reproductive biology.

00:08:58.140 --> 00:09:06.980
 Rick, can I interrupt? What was the giveaway? What gave it away that they were open-minded,

00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:07.980
 non-dogmatic?

00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:19.340
 Well, talking to the nerve biology people, it was just their personalities were absolutely

00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:33.460
 militaristic, rigid, closed-minded, single-minded. And the money went along with that, big research

00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:43.260
 grants. And the reproductive physiology had grants but very low prestige in the department.

00:09:43.260 --> 00:09:53.740
 And people were very relaxed and open and had basically a willingness to learn and consider

00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:59.060
 things. Just the personality was very obviously different.

00:09:59.060 --> 00:10:01.060
 And so you were saying...

00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:10.100
 There was one group working on male reproduction and the other one female. Arnold Soderwal

00:10:10.100 --> 00:10:21.700
 was the person in charge of the female reproductive end. And there were only, I guess when I was

00:10:21.700 --> 00:10:26.980
 there, there were three graduate students working in the lab.

00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:35.980
 Well, that sounds very intimate. It sounds like a good atmosphere.

00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:48.700
 And Soderwal was the link with previous students and what they had been doing. So his work

00:10:48.700 --> 00:10:55.180
 made us feel that our stuff was continuing a tradition that had started in the '30s and

00:10:55.180 --> 00:11:04.740
 '40s where Soderwal was a graduate student. And so the three of us were working on different

00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:13.500
 parts of the system. Bev Stockton was working on implantation, which involved an age-related

00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:24.060
 delay in the production of progesterone. And Terry Parkinning was working on, I think,

00:11:24.060 --> 00:11:34.620
 some enzymes at that time, but he later shifted over to see that the failure of progesterone

00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:43.220
 was an essential... Excess estrogen and falling progesterone was an essential change of aging

00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:54.580
 infertility. And I was working on the oxidative changes in the aging reproductive system.

00:11:54.580 --> 00:12:02.900
 And as I worked with the chemicals, I noticed that handling progesterone, I had always had

00:12:02.900 --> 00:12:08.940
 the tendency to hang nails. And just being careless in the lab and getting some of the

00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:15.260
 progesterone on my hands, I noticed that my hang nails disappeared and have never come

00:12:15.260 --> 00:12:17.900
 back.

00:12:17.900 --> 00:12:24.580
 So even though it's considered to be somewhat of a female hormone, I think, by you, it's

00:12:24.580 --> 00:12:29.660
 also an important... has an important role in males as well.

00:12:29.660 --> 00:12:40.700
 Yeah. As I got acquainted with how it felt on my hands, for example, and I noticed that

00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:49.020
 if I stuck my hand in the powder, I could very quickly taste it on my tongue or sense

00:12:49.020 --> 00:12:58.860
 an awareness that it had got into my bloodstream. I looked at the changes that were known to

00:12:58.860 --> 00:13:06.140
 occur in males and I saw that someone had two different groups just almost at the same

00:13:06.140 --> 00:13:16.660
 time had observed that an intrauterine device for contraception often caused systemic health

00:13:16.660 --> 00:13:26.340
 problems. And they found that the problems were related to a falling progesterone. And

00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:34.900
 animal studies showed that if you put a slight wound into the uterus, signals travel up to

00:13:34.900 --> 00:13:43.740
 the ovary and block the production of progesterone because the animal system recognizes that

00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:53.740
 it isn't wise to get pregnant when you have a wounded uterus. So that was recognized as

00:13:53.740 --> 00:14:01.140
 the effect of the IUD or one of the effects. But at the same time, another group found

00:14:01.140 --> 00:14:08.900
 that men who had had the vasectomy often suffered very serious effects, impotency and such.

00:14:08.900 --> 00:14:16.100
 And they found that the men who suffered the health effects from a vasectomy had very low

00:14:16.100 --> 00:14:23.860
 progesterone and that replacing their progesterone levels up to normal cured their symptoms.

00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:30.980
 And very often just one dose was all that was needed to start the ovaries in the woman

00:14:30.980 --> 00:14:38.700
 or the gonads in the man to begin producing the normal amount.

00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:44.580
 And of course you've mentioned before that progesterone is the hormone of fertility that

00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:45.580
 promotes life.

00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:56.900
 Yeah, it's the basic implantation stabilizer. Estrogen creates a release of histamine throughout

00:14:56.900 --> 00:15:04.540
 the body but especially where it's concentrated in the uterus. And the histamine creates a

00:15:04.540 --> 00:15:14.460
 site of inflammation that is actively growing. But the inflammation focus under the influence

00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:25.020
 of estrogen prevents survival of the implanted embryo. And progesterone turns off the histamine

00:15:25.020 --> 00:15:35.500
 and estrogen and makes it possible to deliver oxygen and sugar to the implanted embryo which

00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:43.340
 would be killed if the estrogen influence continued. So it's the shift towards oxygen

00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:51.820
 and sugar delivery that makes progesterone the preserver of pregnancy.

00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:59.780
 And interestingly people have removed animals' ovaries at the time of fertilization and then

00:15:59.780 --> 00:16:07.820
 given them different hormones and they found that testosterone worked to preserve pregnancy

00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:17.740
 by delivering oxygen and sugar to the implanted embryo. So you could say that testosterone

00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:27.220
 is a progestin in the sense of supporting pregnancy. And the things that are called

00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:36.180
 progestins or progestogens, the term implies that these are acting to preserve pregnancy

00:16:36.180 --> 00:16:45.620
 the way progesterone is. But in fact the synthetic so-called progestins are used in birth control

00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:53.660
 pills because exactly what they don't do is support pregnancy. So they've got the naming

00:16:53.660 --> 00:17:03.900
 system very confused in which testosterone functions potentially as a progestin and the

00:17:03.900 --> 00:17:12.140
 so-called progestins are really anti-progestational chemicals. Doctors have been very confused

00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:13.660
 by that terminology.

00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:19.100
 Yeah, well it's very confusing for all of us. It sounds like our filing system is a

00:17:19.100 --> 00:17:21.100
 little bit screwed up.

00:17:21.100 --> 00:17:32.620
 Yeah, the estrogen industry really contributed to that by creating a theory of how estrogen

00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:43.140
 is a potential contraceptive because it was known from the time Soderwall began his studies

00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:49.820
 from the late 1930s through the 40s it was known that estrogen is an abortifacient. It

00:17:49.820 --> 00:17:58.980
 kills the embryo either at the time of implantation or any time later when it becomes the dominant

00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:10.660
 influence. And the estrogen industry didn't want their product known to be killing the

00:18:10.660 --> 00:18:22.660
 embryos and so they claimed that it stopped ovulation. That was invented just in time

00:18:22.660 --> 00:18:28.140
 for them to come on the market with birth control pills. But it was just a complete

00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:37.980
 fabrication that they made up so that it wouldn't be seen as causing abortions.

00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:44.180
 It does seem bizarre that estrogen is almost universally, among the public anyway, considered

00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:50.420
 to be the female hormone when that's actually the hormone of infertility and abortions.

00:18:50.420 --> 00:19:01.100
 Yeah, and the reason for that was that progesterone turned out to be such a basic simple substance

00:19:01.100 --> 00:19:09.300
 that works to preserve both male and female fertility and to stabilize nerve cells and

00:19:09.300 --> 00:19:16.620
 blood sugar level and oxygen delivery and all of those things. Only that one molecule

00:19:16.620 --> 00:19:31.980
 as the first steroid made out of cholesterol, only that single molecule has those functions.

00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:41.300
 And estrogen, they very early in the 1930s discovered that soot could be extracted to

00:19:41.300 --> 00:19:50.620
 form almost an infinite number of estrogenic substances. And so it was possible for the

00:19:50.620 --> 00:20:03.420
 industry to patent various synthetics. Diethylstilbestrol, D-E-S, became a popular product for the industry

00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:15.780
 and they wanted the idea that it was a female hormone for sales purposes, even though it

00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:26.180
 was known that it actually is essential for male traits to develop. So estrogen could

00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:33.020
 be also called the male hormone better than it could be called the female hormone.

00:20:33.020 --> 00:20:36.340
 Because it causes hair growth and what else?

00:20:36.340 --> 00:20:48.140
 Well, the early development of male characteristics is induced by the local production of estrogen.

00:20:48.140 --> 00:20:53.300
 Testosterone has to turn into estrogen before it androgenizes the brain, before it brings

00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:55.100
 out the male features.

00:20:55.100 --> 00:21:00.660
 How long did you continue to work under Arnold Soderwal?

00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:14.740
 Until 1972. I started, I moved over to his area, I guess, early 1969. And then with Nixon,

00:21:14.740 --> 00:21:23.180
 Nixon canceled a lot of science grants and that closed the lab that Soderwal had been

00:21:23.180 --> 00:21:26.340
 running for many years.

00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:29.580
 That's a shame. Is that where you got your PhD, Ray?

00:21:29.580 --> 00:21:38.100
 Yeah. I had to write my dissertation quickly in the summer of '72 because Nixon had shut

00:21:38.100 --> 00:21:47.060
 off the grant. The government approved the grants, but Nixon simply cut the funds off

00:21:47.060 --> 00:21:50.980
 for even the approved grants.

00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:56.900
 Well looking back at science history a bit, when was progesterone discovered and how has

00:21:56.900 --> 00:21:58.700
 it been used?

00:21:58.700 --> 00:22:08.340
 In the early '30s, the molecule was identified and very quickly, I think Armour was the company

00:22:08.340 --> 00:22:20.300
 that made the corpus luteum pork ovaries were separated from pregnant pigs and the corpus

00:22:20.300 --> 00:22:32.020
 luteum was very richly supplied with progesterone. And so the corpus luteum powder was sold as

00:22:32.020 --> 00:22:45.500
 early as, I think, 1935. And I think I was probably one of the early progesterone babies.

00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:55.820
 My mother having been infertile and getting, I think it was the Armour corpus luteum product.

00:22:55.820 --> 00:23:04.500
 So you do have a personal stake in this. What for myself and everybody else is the corpus

00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:08.900
 luteum? Is that a place where progesterone is concentrated?

00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:22.580
 When the follicle ovulates, releases the egg to be fertilized along with a burst of estrogen,

00:23:22.580 --> 00:23:32.100
 then this area turns into steroid producing cells and reduces the production of estrogen

00:23:32.100 --> 00:23:40.220
 relative to the total steroids and progesterone is the main steroid produced from that time

00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:49.380
 on. And in humans, that is the basic source of progesterone for the first nine weeks,

00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:56.100
 nine or ten weeks of pregnancy and then the placenta takes over production and the corpus

00:23:56.100 --> 00:24:04.220
 luteum fades out. But with each pregnancy, some of those cells remain in the ovary. So

00:24:04.220 --> 00:24:12.740
 a woman who has been pregnant eight times in her lifetime will have higher residual

00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:21.660
 progesterone levels and will live much longer than on average a woman who hasn't had so

00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:29.740
 many pregnancies. They saw the same thing in animals. The more litters the animals had,

00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:34.980
 the younger their tissues were at a given age.

00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:41.260
 Is that perhaps why some women who get fibroids, they've noticed that the fibroids go away

00:24:41.260 --> 00:24:45.420
 if they get pregnant and likely don't return?

00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:52.340
 Oh, I don't think I had heard of that. But yeah, progesterone was recommended for many

00:24:52.340 --> 00:25:01.100
 years for treating making fibroids redress. But partly that involves increased thyroid

00:25:01.100 --> 00:25:07.900
 function. Progesterone is needed to be in balance for the thyroid to work and then the

00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:16.500
 thyroid working causes the liver to lower the estrogen level systemically. So sometimes

00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:24.660
 just one dose of progesterone is all it takes to free the thyroid to function, to stimulate

00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:33.500
 new progesterone synthesis and to lower estrogen systemically.

00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:40.860
 And you've often talked before about estrogen and progesterone basically opposing each other

00:25:40.860 --> 00:25:46.780
 where you might get a surge of estrogen for a certain purpose, but if the progesterone

00:25:46.780 --> 00:25:52.900
 doesn't come out to nullify that effect, you'll end up with bad health effects.

00:25:52.900 --> 00:26:01.340
 Yeah, estrogen stimulates the uptake of water by, I think its first action is to block the

00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:08.900
 use of oxygen. That causes the cell to take up water in the first few hours or minutes

00:26:08.900 --> 00:26:20.100
 of exposure. And the overloading cells with water causes them to go into a growth inflammation

00:26:20.100 --> 00:26:29.740
 state where they forget what they had been doing and simply start multiplying. And so

00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:38.620
 for the first 12 hours that gives a burst of new cells in the uterus ready to receive

00:26:38.620 --> 00:26:46.780
 an implantation. In the breasts it creates a mass of new cells to enlarge the milk production

00:26:46.780 --> 00:26:57.340
 capacity and in the pituitary it enlarges the cells that will take over production of

00:26:57.340 --> 00:27:07.340
 prolactin at the time of lactation. But if you continue that exposure more than a day,

00:27:07.340 --> 00:27:16.300
 that growth continues and then you increase the risk of breast tumors and pituitary tumors.

00:27:16.300 --> 00:27:23.980
 When birth control pills were first on the market in the 1960s, they had big doses of

00:27:23.980 --> 00:27:36.500
 estrogen and there was a terrific epidemic of pituitary tumors producing prolactin. There's

00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:43.020
 been very little written about it but it was like the yearly production in one hospital

00:27:43.020 --> 00:27:52.780
 of pituitary tumors went from I think just a few like five per year up to 300 per year

00:27:52.780 --> 00:28:00.140
 in one publication. Wow, that's significant. And you were talking about your mother having

00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:08.140
 taken Armour corpus luteum and was it used for other things? Was that for getting pregnant?

00:28:08.140 --> 00:28:16.180
 Is that why she was taking it? Yeah, it was recognized that estrogen wasn't the fertility

00:28:16.180 --> 00:28:24.180
 factor as really as that and that progesterone was. But the estrogen industry not being able

00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:31.540
 to patent progesterone because there was only one substance and it was very expensive to

00:28:31.540 --> 00:28:41.460
 make, they found that soot is as cheap as anything and so you can for no production

00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:50.660
 cost you can make any kind of estrogenic substance you choose to. And so they created the whole

00:28:50.660 --> 00:29:01.820
 mythology of what the female hormone is and at that time progesterone had to be very laboriously

00:29:01.820 --> 00:29:12.100
 converted from cholesterol the way the ovary does it and it was later in the 40s when Russell

00:29:12.100 --> 00:29:20.660
 Marker devised a way to make it from the yam steroid and it became very cheap in the early

00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:31.500
 1950s. But the first synthetic forms of progesterone that could be patented that were later developed

00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:46.020
 as contraceptives, these were modified molecules that they marketed as synthetic progesterone

00:29:46.020 --> 00:29:51.380
 with the argument that real progesterone is destroyed in the stomach and so you have to

00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:57.540
 take our product because we've modified it and made it biologically active when you take

00:29:57.540 --> 00:30:05.540
 a pill otherwise you would have to inject it. There were doctors injecting progesterone

00:30:05.540 --> 00:30:14.140
 and curing all kinds of things through the 1940s from premenstrual syndrome, premature

00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:20.940
 births, cancer and so on.

00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:23.780
 Using natural progesterone.

00:30:23.780 --> 00:30:33.700
 Natural progesterone, but the drug companies did their campaign to say that that's too

00:30:33.700 --> 00:30:41.820
 expensive and very few women would want to be injected every month and so here's the

00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:51.660
 synthetic pill which you can take orally and just out of thin air they said natural progesterone

00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:58.820
 can't be taken orally even though a few companies were selling 10 milligram progesterone tablets

00:30:58.820 --> 00:31:07.500
 that worked fine even though the dose was low and fairly expensive. But they convinced

00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:13.860
 doctors just with a few unsourced claims in the medical journals that natural progesterone

00:31:13.860 --> 00:31:20.100
 didn't work so they had to use the synthetics and it turned out that the synthetics had

00:31:20.100 --> 00:31:25.940
 estrogen like anti-conception effects.

00:31:25.940 --> 00:31:31.380
 I see, so they weren't actually doing the full physiological effects of progesterone

00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:33.540
 and they had side effects.

00:31:33.540 --> 00:31:42.100
 Yeah, they were not progestational support agents. They had some slight overlap that

00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:51.540
 allowed them to make the claim. You put some cells in vitro and you get certain changes

00:31:51.540 --> 00:32:01.420
 that are similar to what happens in the pregnant uterus but you can't get the same beneficial

00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:08.340
 looking effects in the whole animal, only in the culture dish.

00:32:08.340 --> 00:32:12.900
 Can you describe basically how it was used therapeutically? I think you've mentioned

00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:19.980
 a few examples but I know, I think her name was Katerina Dalton who's a doctor in England

00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:25.340
 and she wrote a book whose name escapes me, maybe you know the name of the book. But her

00:32:25.340 --> 00:32:32.500
 primary method of giving it was injections.

00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:41.020
 One of the problems was that it's extremely insoluble in everything. Hot olive oil will

00:32:41.020 --> 00:32:49.700
 dissolve a lot of it so it will work on your skin or orally in solution for the first three

00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:59.260
 or four hours but it crystallizes out of solution so the only way you can market an injectable

00:32:59.260 --> 00:33:13.300
 effective product in oil is to use something like benzoyl or benzoyl alcohol. In our lab

00:33:13.300 --> 00:33:22.660
 we had some old containers of benzoyl, benzoate just touching the outside of a bottle that

00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:31.300
 hadn't been opened for 10 or 15 years, my fingers began to crack from an allergic reaction

00:33:31.300 --> 00:33:38.420
 to it and that stuff was injected massively as a solvent with a lot of the early progesterone

00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:46.660
 treatments but still the patient got better because of the powerfully anti-inflammatory

00:33:46.660 --> 00:33:57.500
 effects of progesterone and the less allergenic benzoyl alcohol was the one that persisted

00:33:57.500 --> 00:34:06.780
 in use the longest and it is a nerve toxin that will kill the nerves in the region where

00:34:06.780 --> 00:34:15.860
 it's injected except that again progesterone's powerfully detoxifying effects over rode those

00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:27.620
 poisonous effects of the benzoyl alcohol and so Catherine Adalton's results were just amazing.

00:34:27.620 --> 00:34:30.540
 What was she using it for I was going to ask?

00:34:30.540 --> 00:34:41.700
 Premenstrual syndrome which was related to the tendency to miscarry and the women who

00:34:41.700 --> 00:34:52.700
 did have pregnancies usually delivered very prematurely and their babies were usually

00:34:52.700 --> 00:35:04.940
 underweight and tended to have I think the average IQ was 90 and so she was giving them

00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:10.700
 the injections to cure their premenstrual syndrome and they would become pregnant and

00:35:10.700 --> 00:35:21.740
 she would continue giving the injections during the pregnancy sometimes several hundred milligrams

00:35:21.740 --> 00:35:28.540
 sometimes up to I think 3000 milligrams per pregnancy depending on what they seemed to

00:35:28.540 --> 00:35:35.460
 need although other researchers found that in a lot of women who had the tendency to

00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:42.660
 bleed every month and then to miscarry that very often just one dose of progesterone was

00:35:42.660 --> 00:35:49.540
 all it took to stop that monthly bleeding and make them able to carry each term but

00:35:49.540 --> 00:35:58.980
 anyway Catherine Adalton treated this large number of patients over the years and someone

00:35:58.980 --> 00:36:08.180
 mentioned that it was interesting that her patients' babies all turned out to be so bright

00:36:08.180 --> 00:36:17.220
 they were mostly working class women and she said yeah that's hard to believe because these

00:36:17.220 --> 00:36:27.780
 women the previous babies all had a 90 IQ and so she did a study and found that in fact

00:36:27.780 --> 00:36:38.260
 her babies tended to average 130 IQ just as a result of the regular progesterone dosing

00:36:38.260 --> 00:36:48.380
 a 40 point average increase and she saw that the intelligence of the babies corresponded

00:36:48.380 --> 00:36:55.340
 to the amount of progesterone she gave the mothers during pregnancy the ones who got

00:36:55.340 --> 00:37:07.580
 more than 1500 milligrams per pregnancy turned out the brightest and in England working class

00:37:07.580 --> 00:37:17.820
 kids have very low probability of going to the university and her patients the ones born

00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:26.780
 after the progesterone treatment had a very high academic success outstanding at all levels

00:37:26.780 --> 00:37:35.340
 of school and got scholarships to university and their personalities were very good she

00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:44.260
 said the only problem was that they didn't do well in gym class because they didn't like

00:37:44.260 --> 00:37:58.300
 to march in ranks didn't like to follow orders weren't placid enough to do the kind of arts

00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:04.460
 and crafts things that were expected of them but in all the academic subjects they were

00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:05.460
 outstanding

00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:14.900
, that's remarkable and maybe your mother's corpus luteum ingestion might have helped

00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:24.780
 you in similar ways possibly so what did you do after you left the lab Ray you got your

00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:29.700
 PhD and did you keep working with progesterone after that?

00:38:29.700 --> 00:38:40.980
 Not much it was several years until I was doing nutrition consulting and I think the

00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:51.580
 first time I decided I was giving talks to medical groups and trying to convince them

00:38:51.580 --> 00:39:00.540
 to use progesterone but I was just working out diet changes that could optimize the hormones

00:39:00.540 --> 00:39:13.300
 increase thyroid and lower estrogen and I was hoping that doctors would come to understand

00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:21.340
 why they shouldn't give estrogen because there's really no such thing as an estrogen deficiency

00:39:21.340 --> 00:39:31.700
 any tissue that's injured will become a source of estrogen production and the absence of

00:39:31.700 --> 00:39:39.780
 estrogen in the blood stream it often means that there's an excess of estrogen inside

00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:52.020
 cells because when progesterone is adequate it will destroy the proteins that bind estrogen

00:39:52.020 --> 00:39:57.660
 inside cells causing the harmful estrogen effect.

00:39:57.660 --> 00:40:03.940
 Progesterone causes the estrogen to be released from inside cells into the blood stream where

00:40:03.940 --> 00:40:13.380
 it can be controlled and eliminated so you can't go by a blood test that seems to show

00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:21.300
 an estrogen deficiency and the more a tissue is injured or aged the more likely it is to

00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:31.260
 have aromatase inside making estrogen so an injured breast tending to develop a tumor

00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:39.980
 becomes a source of estrogen itself and injured uterus becomes a source of new estrogen.

00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:49.620
 Fat a person isn't metabolizing their energy system very well so they lay down fat and

00:40:49.620 --> 00:40:53.380
 fat becomes a source of estrogen.

00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:58.940
 Well you were saying that aging can be equivalent to an injury and so does that mean as we get

00:40:58.940 --> 00:41:02.380
 older we're all producing more estrogen?

00:41:02.380 --> 00:41:05.860
 Yeah, more of our tissues.

00:41:05.860 --> 00:41:13.580
 The person tends to lose muscle and bone and replace it with fat and connective tissue

00:41:13.580 --> 00:41:22.380
 and those tissues become sources of inflammatory materials and estrogen.

00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:29.180
 And progesterone in its role is opposing that inflammatory process that would shut down

00:41:29.180 --> 00:41:31.300
 that estrogen cycle?

00:41:31.300 --> 00:41:40.420
 Yeah, it's one of the things that turns off aromatase but it also turns off the enzymes

00:41:40.420 --> 00:41:46.780
 that inflammation causes estrogen to concentrate in the tissue besides being produced in the

00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:55.020
 tissue so any estrogen that your liver is trying to get rid of through the kidneys if

00:41:55.020 --> 00:42:05.460
 it happens to pass by an inflamed cell enzymes will catch the estrogen by releasing gluturonic

00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:10.260
 acid or sulfate from the estrogen molecule.

00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:19.060
 Estrogen inactivates both of those enzymes that cause tissues to catch estrogen and it

00:42:19.060 --> 00:42:27.460
 activates the opposite enzymes right in that tissue allowing the tissue to send estrogen

00:42:27.460 --> 00:42:37.300
 back out by attaching sulfate or gluturonic acid to it and it shifts the balance of reduction

00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:48.020
 oxidation enzymes so that it shifts away from the powerful estradiol to the weak estrone.

00:42:48.020 --> 00:42:54.740
 I think there are nine different things that happen in a single inflamed cell under the

00:42:54.740 --> 00:43:01.860
 influence of progesterone to release estrogen from the cell and stop its production.

00:43:01.860 --> 00:43:13.620
 And what got me started recommending it directly to people was a woman, a 52-year-old woman

00:43:13.620 --> 00:43:18.980
 who had been epileptic from the age of 35.

00:43:18.980 --> 00:43:27.700
 She was a school teacher and had had migraines and the neurologist told her that migraines

00:43:27.700 --> 00:43:39.980
 were like epilepsy and gave her an anti-seizure drug and she said it did stop her migraines

00:43:39.980 --> 00:43:46.500
 but it made her so stupid she couldn't go back to teaching school and so she stopped

00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:50.020
 taking the drug and had an actual seizure.

00:43:50.020 --> 00:43:55.380
 Her first seizure was when she stopped taking the seizure medicine that she hadn't really

00:43:55.380 --> 00:44:03.060
 needed and so she went to the doctor and he said, "See I told you, migraines were like

00:44:03.060 --> 00:44:04.060
 epilepsy."

00:44:04.060 --> 00:44:09.220
 It's like she'd been vaccinated with the flu vaccine and then got the flu.

00:44:09.220 --> 00:44:16.980
 Yeah, and so right from the age of 35 she was having so many seizures that she couldn't

00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:23.700
 teach school anymore and after 17 years she said every year the neurologist would give

00:44:23.700 --> 00:44:32.540
 her a mental test and declare that her mind had deteriorated farther and she was so demanded

00:44:32.540 --> 00:44:38.320
 that she couldn't find her way home if she went outside the house.

00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:44.220
 So the first time she visited her son brought her so he could take her home.

00:44:44.220 --> 00:44:51.540
 She said she was spending all but a couple of hours every day in bed having seizures

00:44:51.540 --> 00:45:02.500
 and taking her anti-seizure drugs and she had some arthritic fingers all puffed up and

00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:11.180
 red and I told her that since I had been talking to some of the doctors telling them that since

00:45:11.180 --> 00:45:18.780
 they were convinced that progesterone can't be taken orally I dissolved it in oil and

00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:26.900
 convinced them that they could use it transdermally as a way to get around their prejudice, the

00:45:26.900 --> 00:45:31.780
 mistaken belief that it isn't active orally.

00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:39.100
 So I had some of the progesterone in oil and told her about it, how it was anti-inflammatory

00:45:39.100 --> 00:45:48.900
 and anti-seizure and suggested she try it and she held up her fat fingers and said well

00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:54.900
 these are inflamed so I'll start and she dipped her fingers in the beaker full of progesterone

00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:59.260
 oil and her son took her home.

00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:08.700
 I gave her a sheet of paper and told her to mark each day how she felt starting at the

00:46:08.700 --> 00:46:14.980
 left and moving day by day across the sheet and she said well that's easy, every day I

00:46:14.980 --> 00:46:22.820
 feel the worst possible and so she drew some circles in the lower left hand corner and

00:46:22.820 --> 00:46:31.100
 I think it was four or five days later I saw her coming down the walk without her son waving

00:46:31.100 --> 00:46:40.060
 the paper in one hand and wiggling her fingers on the other hand and she had drawn a curved

00:46:40.060 --> 00:46:48.060
 line with the fourth or fifth circle up in the upper right hand corner of the paper and

00:46:48.060 --> 00:46:58.840
 her fingers were not arthritic anymore and she said she felt fine and was working all

00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:05.140
 day around the house and could find her way home.

00:47:05.140 --> 00:47:11.220
 That was in the summer and she enrolled back in the university for a master's degree in

00:47:11.220 --> 00:47:22.540
 gerontology and got straight A's and got her degree nine months later and she had been

00:47:22.540 --> 00:47:26.140
 told for years that she was hopelessly demented.

00:47:26.140 --> 00:47:28.100
 And what about her seizures, Ray?

00:47:28.100 --> 00:47:29.100
 No more.

00:47:29.100 --> 00:47:35.980
 Just that one week of doses got everything back to normal.

00:47:35.980 --> 00:47:39.860
 And that was just transdermal, topical applications?

00:47:39.860 --> 00:47:41.140
 Yeah.

00:47:41.140 --> 00:47:49.980
 And her blood tests showed that she had quite a bit more estrogen in her blood than progesterone

00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:57.660
 and you should have about a hundred times more progesterone than estrogen.

00:47:57.660 --> 00:47:58.660
 So that's remarkable.

00:47:58.660 --> 00:48:04.940
 And so at that point you started to recommend it regularly to people?

00:48:04.940 --> 00:48:05.940
 Yeah.

00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:16.780
 And at that time I was teaching endocrinology at the Naturopathic College and somehow, I

00:48:16.780 --> 00:48:24.660
 guess someone that the epileptic person knew heard I was interested in progesterone and

00:48:24.660 --> 00:48:32.860
 she had read Katharina Dalton's book and had talked a doctor into giving her progesterone

00:48:32.860 --> 00:48:41.380
 shots and she had had multiple sclerosis or optic neuritis, had been paralyzed, bedridden

00:48:41.380 --> 00:48:51.540
 and I think she was mostly blind for weeks at a time because of the optic neuritis and

00:48:51.540 --> 00:48:58.540
 she was getting these periodic semi-toxic injections of progesterone every time she

00:48:58.540 --> 00:49:00.860
 could talk a doctor into it.

00:49:00.860 --> 00:49:05.540
 Toxic because of the vehicle, was it the benzo alcohol or something?

00:49:05.540 --> 00:49:06.540
 Yeah.

00:49:06.540 --> 00:49:17.860
 And she volunteered to lecture to my endocrine class in Portland which was in an old building

00:49:17.860 --> 00:49:26.220
 upstairs and she drove herself there, walked up to the, whatever it was, second or third

00:49:26.220 --> 00:49:33.420
 floor and lectured through the two-hour class about what she had learned about progesterone

00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:37.660
 from her own experience and Katharina Dalton's work.

00:49:37.660 --> 00:49:46.860
 And so my naturopathic students were pretty well convinced by her lecture.

00:49:46.860 --> 00:49:48.860
 What year was this Ray?

00:49:48.860 --> 00:49:49.860
 '78.

00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:51.860
 '78 and at that point...

00:49:51.860 --> 00:49:53.540
 '77 or '78.

00:49:53.540 --> 00:49:54.540
 Okay.

00:49:54.540 --> 00:50:00.340
 And at that point, I mean obviously it sounds like progesterone is one of the obvious ways

00:50:00.340 --> 00:50:06.740
 it's doing its work is as an anti-inflammatory because all those problems sound like inflammation

00:50:06.740 --> 00:50:08.340
 problems don't they?

00:50:08.340 --> 00:50:09.340
 Yeah.

00:50:09.340 --> 00:50:16.840
 After that first experience with the fat fingers I started telling people about the topical

00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:28.740
 use and I think it was about 30 people who had essentially immediate or overnight recovery

00:50:28.740 --> 00:50:35.740
 from various types of arthritis, not just rheumatoid but so-called osteoarthritis.

00:50:35.740 --> 00:50:46.820
 A woman from Sweden who had some metal joints installed and was planning several more installations

00:50:46.820 --> 00:50:49.700
 and was basically crippled.

00:50:49.700 --> 00:50:57.180
 She was visiting in Eugene and a psychologist friend who started using progesterone herself

00:50:57.180 --> 00:51:05.660
 gave her some and she spread it all over her body and spent her time in Eugene walking

00:51:05.660 --> 00:51:11.380
 around town enjoying the sights and having no arthritis.

00:51:11.380 --> 00:51:15.140
 Because the inflammation had gone down so there's no pain.

00:51:15.140 --> 00:51:16.140
 Yeah.

00:51:16.140 --> 00:51:23.580
 Now you've cautioned man against using too much progesterone because it opposes testosterone

00:51:23.580 --> 00:51:27.220
 too or what's...

00:51:27.220 --> 00:51:32.620
 If you take a very big dose it has a cold shower effect.

00:51:32.620 --> 00:51:42.980
 It simply displaces testosterone temporarily and so if a man isn't understanding the physiology

00:51:42.980 --> 00:51:52.420
 of it he might be frightened by the sudden effect but it passes in two or three days.

00:51:52.420 --> 00:51:57.700
 So I know from what you're saying it sounds so amazing and I know a lot of people with

00:51:57.700 --> 00:52:05.460
 arthritis so if they're listening to this they might obviously want to try some and

00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:12.620
 if men are doing it are there any other cautionary tales about using progesterone?

00:52:12.620 --> 00:52:15.260
 Well, yeah.

00:52:15.260 --> 00:52:23.860
 Once a friend accidentally put a spoonful of it in a margarita thinking it was pregnenolone

00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:33.700
 and I guess I had about 500 or 1000 milligrams and I couldn't feel where my hands and feet

00:52:33.700 --> 00:52:38.100
 were for about half an hour.

00:52:38.100 --> 00:52:40.100
 Because it's an anesthetic.

00:52:40.100 --> 00:52:47.780
 Yeah, and it will anesthetize you totally if you take very large doses.

00:52:47.780 --> 00:52:56.740
 So at first when I found that vitamin E was a good solvent I made very concentrated solutions

00:52:56.740 --> 00:53:06.380
 but I realized that a person getting too enthusiastic might kill themselves by anesthetizing themselves.

00:53:06.380 --> 00:53:11.740
 There's nothing in the literature about using it as an anesthetic in humans but I've had

00:53:11.740 --> 00:53:19.620
 the experience so I don't think it should be more than a 10% solution.

00:53:19.620 --> 00:53:26.740
 Now I know we're actually almost out of time here so I think I wanted to talk about sort

00:53:26.740 --> 00:53:32.780
 of the broad science implications of progesterone and how it's been approached by science in

00:53:32.780 --> 00:53:36.020
 the medical world in general but I don't even think we're going to get to that.

00:53:36.020 --> 00:53:43.300
 So if you wouldn't mind Ray making maybe this two shows we can take on the other issues

00:53:43.300 --> 00:53:44.300
 next time.

00:53:44.300 --> 00:53:53.500
 But I wanted to ask you something which just flew out of my mind like a bird.

00:53:53.500 --> 00:53:57.020
 What we were just talking about before I interrupted you again.

00:53:57.020 --> 00:53:58.300
 Arthritis?

00:53:58.300 --> 00:54:07.380
 Yeah, surprisingly the effect even when your knees have been examined and the cartilage

00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:12.220
 is crumbling to pieces or your knee looks like a football.

00:54:12.220 --> 00:54:19.860
 The second person I gave progesterone to we just bought a flask of the injectable stuff

00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:30.060
 in the toxic alcohol and my friend had a knee that he said it was agonizingly painful and

00:54:30.060 --> 00:54:36.020
 it was swelling up every day for weeks and weeks.

00:54:36.020 --> 00:54:38.060
 Had it been injured?

00:54:38.060 --> 00:54:46.300
 No just from working at his bench every day and we spread this whole flask from his thigh

00:54:46.300 --> 00:54:53.900
 around his knee down to the upper part of his calf and within two or three hours this

00:54:53.900 --> 00:54:57.300
 football sized knee had deflated.

00:54:57.300 --> 00:55:09.260
 That was in 1978 or 9 and for all the years up until two or three years ago he had never

00:55:09.260 --> 00:55:11.300
 had arthritis again.

00:55:11.300 --> 00:55:14.580
 30 years roughly.

00:55:14.580 --> 00:55:17.700
 Wow, I know what I wanted to say.

00:55:17.700 --> 00:55:22.900
 We were talking about the possible negative sides of progesterone and you were saying

00:55:22.900 --> 00:55:30.020
 you know the worst thing that could happen is maybe overdosing and going to sleep and

00:55:30.020 --> 00:55:36.380
 that reminded me of the Wall Street Journal article about brain damaged people, people

00:55:36.380 --> 00:55:40.020
 who have been in accidents or had strokes.

00:55:40.020 --> 00:55:52.740
 It was known in the 50s as a brain preserving hormone both prenatally and in animal studies.

00:55:52.740 --> 00:56:00.460
 It's a growth factor for nerves and an anti-stress, anti-inflammatory agent.

00:56:00.460 --> 00:56:03.940
 So it's anti-edema.

00:56:03.940 --> 00:56:09.260
 Edema is one of the factors that kills the rest of the brain cells after some of them

00:56:09.260 --> 00:56:10.940
 have been injured.

00:56:10.940 --> 00:56:17.580
 So it's an obvious way to stop the progression of the damage after brain trauma but it's

00:56:17.580 --> 00:56:24.100
 also a growth factor that optimizes the repair.

00:56:24.100 --> 00:56:33.500
 It promotes the remyelinization of the fibers.

00:56:33.500 --> 00:56:38.940
 For example in multiple sclerosis that seems to be or in optic neuritis that seems to be

00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:42.020
 the way it's therapeutic.

00:56:42.020 --> 00:56:45.300
 One of the most impressive things about that long article in the Wall Street Journal was

00:56:45.300 --> 00:56:52.180
 that he did a very extensive study on all these brain injured people and stroke victims

00:56:52.180 --> 00:56:59.700
 and many of them made miraculous recoveries and there were no side effects from the use

00:56:59.700 --> 00:57:00.820
 of the progesterone.

00:57:00.820 --> 00:57:04.940
 So there's not many treatments that you can say that about.

00:57:04.940 --> 00:57:14.900
 Yeah, in the 70s I advocated that everyone should carry a bottle with them in case they

00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:24.540
 were in an accident as first aid for whatever happened to you because for example a friend

00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:31.540
 spilled a pan of boiling water on her thigh and we happened to have a beaker of progesterone

00:57:31.540 --> 00:57:40.940
 there and we poured that on and an hour or so later there was no pain or redness or blister.

00:57:40.940 --> 00:57:41.940
 Wow.

00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:48.860
 Well Ray, we are out of time and sped by as usual and we've been talking to Dr. Raymond

00:57:48.860 --> 00:57:55.420
 Peat, endocrinologist, physiologist with a PhD in biology from Eugene, Oregon and you

00:57:55.420 --> 00:58:04.260
 can find out more about Ray at his website, Raypeat.com.

00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:08.740
 Ray thanks so much for being on and I hope to continue this in a part two discussion

00:58:08.740 --> 00:58:10.420
 in the days to come.

00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:12.540
 Okay, very good.

00:58:12.540 --> 00:58:13.540
 Thanks a lot Ray.

00:58:13.540 --> 00:58:14.540
 Bye.

00:58:14.540 --> 00:58:15.540
 Bye bye.

00:58:15.540 --> 00:58:21.380
 And you've been listening to Politics and Science, an interview with Dr. Raymond Peat

00:58:21.380 --> 00:58:30.180
 recorded on the 22nd of January 2012, hopefully a part two discussion will follow shortly

00:58:30.180 --> 00:58:35.500
 and you can find a number of politics and science shows at the Radio for All website.

00:58:35.500 --> 00:58:39.420
 I'm getting them up there slowly but hopefully surely.

00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:48.740
 Go to radionumeralforall.net, radioforall.net and then search for politics and science and

00:58:48.740 --> 00:58:54.940
 you will find the webpage where there are now maybe I think 15 shows up there and there

00:58:54.940 --> 00:58:56.900
 will be more to come.

00:58:56.900 --> 00:59:00.600
 So thanks for listening and stay tuned again next week for another edition of Politics

00:59:00.600 --> 00:59:01.460
 and Science.

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