Differentiating DTS:X and DTS-HD MA for IMAX enhanced movies (special variant of DTS:X) #422
Comments
|
Detection of DTS:X is from empirical checks, as I have no spec. |
|
I emailed you a sample that is not being detected as DTS:X MA on MediaInfo 19.09. It might be related to some new spec/slight changes in the last couple of months. I just noticed the same issue with the 4k disk of Jumanji Next Level |
|
If it helps, prima facie, it seems like the commonality between these disks is that they are all |
|
And I thought it was me! Drove me crazy. Jumanji TNL is indeed detected as DTSHDMA 7.1 and not DTS-X 7.1. I checked Phantom Thread and that one shows DTS XLL X properly. I dont see mine as being IMAX enhanced though. |
|
Any update on this? Mainly, were you able to also replicate/see the issue, or am I and loungebob just going crazy? |
I have some urgent paid support to provide before checking this issue. For speeding up the check on my side:
Please provide a version number about when it is detected. |
|
No worries, that makes sense. I think I was not fully clear. No version of MediaInfo that I tested seems to be recognizing this file as DTS X. Actually, what I was saying is that MediaInfo version 19.09 does recognize |
|
I was going to report this, good thing I checked first. |
|
Might be worth sending him an email with it. Not sure if my sample was very good. I definitely notice this specifically with IMAX enhanced movies with DTS X tracks. It is a special variant
Source: https://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/imax-enhanced-dts-audio-format-debut/ |
The more is the better, in order to have more chances to understand how it is "hidden" in the file. The best would be at the minimum to have DTS provide their specs as Dolby does... |
|
I sent you an email. I've uploaded the entire track as I didn't know if spliting it would mess with something, so to be completely sure I didn't do it. |
DTS has standalone frames, anyway it can be useful to test all frames so thanks for the complete file. |
Thanks for working on this, no pressures here. |
rg9400
changed the title
|
Was any progress made on this? I can provide some interesting samples if that would help (Imax Enhanced and high object count DTS:X) |
|
Not sure if it is best to raise a separate issue but there are some normal DTS:X tracks which do not detect: All of the above are detected fine by my receiver but Mediainfo thinks they are plain DTS HD. |
|
@Krobar please few frames of each file, work on that is still stalled but having more files would be better when I decide to work on that, especially because for the moment I see only reverse engineering as a possibility, I didn't find any spec about that. |
|
@Krobar appreciated. |
|
@JeromeMartinez I'm seeing what I believe is a strong pattern on what is and is not detected as DTS:X by MediaInfo. If the media contains DTS:X with Fixed Channels and no objects then it detects OK. If the media contains DTS:X with objects (Regardless of if fixed channels are included or not) then it fails to detect. |
Detection of DTS:X is by reverse engineering, with some byte patterns. so I guess they changed a bit the bytes with objects. |
|
You might want to check if Whisky Tango Foxtrot and Zoolander 2 have the same pattern as they were likely authored by the same people. |
|
Can confirm that the DTS:X track from Independence Day 4K 20th anniversary edition does not get detected as DTS:X from mediainfo as of version 22.09. |
No change there, we didn't check by reverse engineering or so. Is it detected by any other open source software? |
|
Not that I know of. |
|
@Krobar @loungebob @acedogblast @rg9400 @parasiteoflife @alexdns1: We implemented parsing of the XLL addition (DTS-HD MA) in order to catch the end of the bitstream (and the real lossless bit depth, by the way) as specified in latest available spec and probe the bytes next to the end of this known bitstream, then we check for "magic values"; it is reverse engineering and empirical tests, we found 2 magic values (1 bit difference) in the streams we found for IMAX, so maybe there are maybe more streams not caught with that. Also, we are a bit lost in what is what, you know better than us. Current implementation: DTS:X: IMAX Enhanced: Does it make sense? i.e. is it true that IMAX version is not compatible (DTS:X non IMAX plays only the DTS-HD MA, not catching any DTS:X)? is it true that DTS:X is object based and IMAX Enhanced channel based? It removes the count of channels from the legacy layer because we want to show data from the most advanced detection (and we don't have the count of IMAX, only from DTS+HD MA), but DTS-HD MA channel count will come back in a later patch, more general about legacy layers? |
|
I believe your labeling is wrong
No you fallback to DTS-X on compatible sink devices
DTS-X is DTS HD MA with object based tracks on top
That statement means that the max DTS-X 2 or 4 object channels which is 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. While TrueHD Atmos can do 17 ? i think object channels
No there are lots of DTS-HD MA 7.1 tracks without object channels so they are not DTS-X
DTS-HD MA spec is up to 7.1 - anything above that is DTS-X for sure
IMAX doesn't add any additional channels... Channel(s) : Object Based Instead of displaying "Object Based" can you display the DTS channel count + Object Based |
"Magic values" are very different (0x02000850 for DTS:X vs 0xF14000D0 for IMAX), I guess that there was some provision for legacy DTS:X not IMAX, so OK I flag that as "X IMAX" until someone says that their IMAX thing does not work on their DTS:X non IMAX decoder.
Technically it seems that there is no such limit for MA. I am interested in a sample stream with 9.1.2 channels.
This stuff makes me crazy, there is more marketing stuff than anything technical...
This is what is already used for DTS:X not IMAX, but now I check Dolby Atmos and I see that the display does the difference between "classic" stream and the object parts, with a "Bed channels" line, so for the moment let's keep the "classic" stream (core+MA) channels. New version: DTS:X: IMAX Enhanced: Wondering... DTS-HD MA is lossless, is DTS:X or IMAX lossless too? |
DTS HD MA max technical channels are 8 in a 7.1 configuration. There is no object audio on it - that is DTS-X
Well they need to sell stuff to people that have already perfectly working receivers/sink - they cant otherwise
Yep that works great !
Oh boy you are in for a treat ! |
They use the same commercial name for so different things... even worse that they use DTS-HD MA (so lossless) as the base for then lossy stuff. |
Its about how they are encoded and from what source. You can encode DTS HD-MA or DTS-X in any bitrate you like |
Could you share some audio frames of this "lossy" streams? I am curious to see how XLL extension is used in that case (XLL is supposed to be lossless... Maybe they just ignore the lossless part and jump directly to the "X" part, I would like to see that). |
|
@JeromeMartinez sorry i dont have any DTS-X IMAX streaming releases but i will ask around to see if i can come up with something for you |
|
I've tested with some movies and it detected the tracks as:
In the current stable release they are detected as:
There is definitely an improvement. I've only tested the movies I have and that I found in this list, it seems most releases go with Dolby. Thanks! |
|
FYI, due to #710 I refactored some code and cleaned up the DTS output. In order to keep track of what is "under" DTS:X, I keep now the underlying commercial name.
Hope it is coherent with what your AVR display, else please report incoherencies. Development snapshot: Windows, macOS
Added. |
|
This isn't fixed completely; only for some movies. The designation is wrong for some other files: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1pq5XC9P9Isw-IAkriikHl4p8t_IjNxxC?usp=sharing These files will only be hosted for a bit. Please tell me when everyone's acquired them. Jumani: The Next Level is correct: I have four other movies with IMAX Enhanced that I can clip for you to test with. Those all show up correctly. This is from a DTS demo called Between Zero and One: The Trinnov receiver company sent me some demos. They are Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and DTS:X Pro. For some reason, the DTS:X Pro files only show regular DTS:X on my receiver, and MediaInfo doesn't know what to do with them: My receiver is a Marantz AV 10. It has support for IMAX Enhanced and DTS:X Pro. DTS:X Pro supports more than 11 channels which is good because my receiver has 15 channels + LFE. I'm not sure if DTS:X Pro is supposed to show up on the receiver though. My thinking is it just means you have more base layer channels available; I don't think it's a different protocol than DTS:X though. |
|
Do I need to post this same data somewhere else? Since this ticket is closed, it might not get the same view as open tickets. |
Sorry, I have delay in managing tickets., still on my todo-list. |
|
Thanks! Just didn't wanna have this info get lost. |
Mediainfo version 19.09
I noticed that a lot of recent 4k releases have DTS:X tracks, but when I rip them and check the mediainfo, it is identified as DTS-HD MA with no discernible difference in the mediainfo between that and an actual DTS-HD MA track. I did check older releases, and they do have the proper
XLL Xparameter listed.I had this tested via playback on a Denon receiver, and the receiver did pick up
DTS:X MAas the codec. The movie isCharlie's Angelsthough I noticed similar behavior forA Beautiful Day in the NeighborhoodandZombieland Double Tapas well. Listing the full mediainfo for the file below.EDIT: IMAX enhanced movies are using a special variant of DTS X that MediaInfo is not able to currently recognize.
Source: https://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/imax-enhanced-dts-audio-format-debut/
{ "media": { "@ref": "E:\\Ctd\\Charlie's Angels\\test.mkv", "track": [ { "@type": "General", "UniqueID": "199763530053310689454084631493189799213", "VideoCount": "1", "AudioCount": "1", "TextCount": "21", "MenuCount": "1", "FileExtension": "mkv", "Format": "Matroska", "Format_Version": "4", "FileSize": "48140699169", "Duration": "7110.112", "OverallBitRate_Mode": "VBR", "OverallBitRate": "54165897", "FrameRate": "23.976", "FrameCount": "170472", "StreamSize": "5700270", "IsStreamable": "Yes", "Title": "Charlie's Angels 4K", "Movie": "Charlie's Angels 4K", "Encoded_Date": "UTC 2020-02-28 04:22:19", "File_Created_Date": "UTC 2020-03-05 22:40:19.214", "File_Created_Date_Local": "2020-03-05 16:40:19.214", "File_Modified_Date": "UTC 2020-03-01 00:58:55.700", "File_Modified_Date_Local": "2020-02-29 18:58:55.700", "Encoded_Application": "mkvmerge v43.0.0 ('The Quartermaster') 64-bit", "Encoded_Library": "libebml v1.3.10 + libmatroska v1.5.2", "extra": { "IMDB": "tt5033998", "TMDB": "movie/458897" } }, { "@type": "Video", "StreamOrder": "0", "ID": "1", "UniqueID": "1824465896351993439", "Format": "HEVC", "Format_Profile": "Main 10", "Format_Level": "5.1", "Format_Tier": "High", "HDR_Format": "SMPTE ST 2086", "HDR_Format_Compatibility": "HDR10", "CodecID": "V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC", "Duration": "7110.103000000", "BitRate": "47280648", "Width": "3840", "Height": "2160", "Sampled_Width": "3840", "Sampled_Height": "2160", "PixelAspectRatio": "1.000", "DisplayAspectRatio": "1.778", "FrameRate_Mode": "CFR", "FrameRate": "23.976", "FrameCount": "170472", "ColorSpace": "YUV", "ChromaSubsampling": "4:2:0", "ChromaSubsampling_Position": "Type 2", "BitDepth": "10", "Delay": "0.000", "StreamSize": "42021284828", "Default": "Yes", "Forced": "No", "colour_description_present": "Yes", "colour_description_present_Source": "Stream", "colour_range": "Limited", "colour_range_Source": "Stream", "colour_primaries": "BT.2020", "colour_primaries_Source": "Stream", "transfer_characteristics": "PQ", "transfer_characteristics_Source": "Stream", "matrix_coefficients": "BT.2020 non-constant", "matrix_coefficients_Source": "Stream", "MasteringDisplay_ColorPrimaries": "Display P3", "MasteringDisplay_ColorPrimaries_Source": "Stream", "MasteringDisplay_Luminance": "min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2", "MasteringDisplay_Luminance_Source": "Stream", "MaxCLL": "9949 cd/m2", "MaxCLL_Source": "Stream", "MaxFALL": "904 cd/m2", "MaxFALL_Source": "Stream" }, { "@type": "Audio", "StreamOrder": "1", "ID": "2", "UniqueID": "2614698419623003428", "Format": "DTS", "Format_Commercial_IfAny": "DTS-HD Master Audio", "Format_Settings_Mode": "16", "Format_Settings_Endianness": "Big", "Format_AdditionalFeatures": "XLL", "CodecID": "A_DTS", "Duration": "7110.112000000", "BitRate_Mode": "VBR", "BitRate": "6242280", "Channels": "8", "ChannelPositions": "Front: L C R, Side: L R, Back: L R, LFE", "ChannelLayout": "C L R LFE Lb Rb Lss Rss", "SamplesPerFrame": "512", "SamplingRate": "48000", "SamplingCount": "341285376", "FrameRate": "93.750", "FrameCount": "666573", "BitDepth": "24", "Compression_Mode": "Lossless", "Delay": "0.000", "Delay_Source": "Container", "StreamSize": "5547914400", "StreamSize_Proportion": "0.11524", "Title": "DTS:X 7.1", "Language": "en", "Default": "Yes", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "1", "ID": "3", "UniqueID": "1235063323383860457", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "1172.338000000", "BitRate": "1045", "FrameRate": "0.015", "FrameCount": "18", "ElementCount": "18", "StreamSize": "153154", "Title": "English (Forced only)", "Language": "en", "Default": "Yes", "Forced": "Yes" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "2", "ID": "4", "UniqueID": "2488744153031235836", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "6755.081000000", "BitRate": "36572", "FrameRate": "0.475", "FrameCount": "3206", "ElementCount": "3206", "StreamSize": "30880975", "Title": "English", "Language": "en", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "3", "ID": "5", "UniqueID": "10953577976682247923", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "6941.894000000", "BitRate": "44155", "FrameRate": "0.550", "FrameCount": "3820", "ElementCount": "3820", "StreamSize": "38314926", "Title": "English (SDH)", "Language": "en", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "4", "ID": "6", "UniqueID": "16862252624415932763", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7061.971000000", "BitRate": "20890", "FrameRate": "0.468", "FrameCount": "3305", "ElementCount": "3305", "StreamSize": "18441013", "Title": "Arabic", "Language": "ar", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "5", "ID": "7", "UniqueID": "10945388432280711048", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7061.971000000", "BitRate": "31402", "FrameRate": "0.456", "FrameCount": "3223", "ElementCount": "3223", "StreamSize": "27720063", "Title": "Bulgarian", "Language": "bg", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "6", "ID": "8", "UniqueID": "13404179805721034748", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "29759", "FrameRate": "0.454", "FrameCount": "3204", "ElementCount": "3204", "StreamSize": "26248744", "Title": "Croatian", "Language": "hr", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "7", "ID": "9", "UniqueID": "13794397695572376233", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "31385", "FrameRate": "0.464", "FrameCount": "3275", "ElementCount": "3275", "StreamSize": "27682644", "Title": "Czech", "Language": "cs", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "8", "ID": "10", "UniqueID": "4031795221431290045", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "27660", "FrameRate": "0.447", "FrameCount": "3155", "ElementCount": "3155", "StreamSize": "24396810", "Title": "French", "Language": "fr", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "9", "ID": "11", "UniqueID": "6217050999495593679", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "6763.006000000", "BitRate": "36639", "FrameRate": "0.480", "FrameCount": "3247", "ElementCount": "3247", "StreamSize": "30974151", "Title": "Greek", "Language": "el", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "10", "ID": "12", "UniqueID": "7516980359831019735", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7062.472000000", "BitRate": "25997", "FrameRate": "0.469", "FrameCount": "3315", "ElementCount": "3315", "StreamSize": "22951131", "Title": "Hebrew", "Language": "he", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "11", "ID": "13", "UniqueID": "14207411358360306617", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "34035", "FrameRate": "0.454", "FrameCount": "3204", "ElementCount": "3204", "StreamSize": "30019751", "Title": "Hungarian", "Language": "hu", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "12", "ID": "14", "UniqueID": "11812870529798669692", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7062.472000000", "BitRate": "32819", "FrameRate": "0.444", "FrameCount": "3134", "ElementCount": "3134", "StreamSize": "28973626", "Title": "Icelandic", "Language": "is", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "13", "ID": "15", "UniqueID": "4316700920247227926", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7061.638000000", "BitRate": "30074", "FrameRate": "0.534", "FrameCount": "3774", "ElementCount": "3774", "StreamSize": "26546481", "Title": "Korean", "Language": "ko", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "14", "ID": "16", "UniqueID": "1663490792835211507", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "34407", "FrameRate": "0.455", "FrameCount": "3211", "ElementCount": "3211", "StreamSize": "30347824", "Title": "Polish", "Language": "pl", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "15", "ID": "17", "UniqueID": "8264533774351787290", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "37263", "FrameRate": "0.462", "FrameCount": "3259", "ElementCount": "3259", "StreamSize": "32866817", "Title": "Portuguese (Iberian)", "Language": "pt", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "16", "ID": "18", "UniqueID": "4735549868080252193", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "33533", "FrameRate": "0.435", "FrameCount": "3071", "ElementCount": "3071", "StreamSize": "29577187", "Title": "Romanian", "Language": "ro", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "17", "ID": "19", "UniqueID": "11047766040909238408", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7061.971000000", "BitRate": "30555", "FrameRate": "0.456", "FrameCount": "3218", "ElementCount": "3218", "StreamSize": "26973016", "Title": "Serbian", "Language": "sr", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "18", "ID": "20", "UniqueID": "16461732301770012319", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.049000000", "BitRate": "29037", "FrameRate": "0.466", "FrameCount": "3289", "ElementCount": "3289", "StreamSize": "25611422", "Title": "Slovak", "Language": "sk", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "19", "ID": "21", "UniqueID": "15182836490083118557", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.049000000", "BitRate": "28651", "FrameRate": "0.376", "FrameCount": "2652", "ElementCount": "2652", "StreamSize": "25270566", "Title": "Slovenian", "Language": "sl", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "20", "ID": "22", "UniqueID": "4374001836833664", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.132000000", "BitRate": "33832", "FrameRate": "0.459", "FrameCount": "3239", "ElementCount": "3239", "StreamSize": "29841126", "Title": "Spanish (Latin American)", "Language": "es", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Text", "@typeorder": "21", "ID": "23", "UniqueID": "1088723151376132958", "Format": "PGS", "CodecID": "S_HDMV/PGS", "Duration": "7056.091000000", "BitRate": "36290", "FrameRate": "0.468", "FrameCount": "3301", "ElementCount": "3301", "StreamSize": "32008244", "Title": "Turkish", "Language": "tr", "Default": "No", "Forced": "No" }, { "@type": "Menu", "extra": { "_00_00_00_000": "en:Chapter 01", "_00_10_26_626": "en:Chapter 02", "_00_16_50_551": "en:Chapter 03", "_00_26_28_754": "en:Chapter 04", "_00_31_52_786": "en:Chapter 05", "_00_37_36_087": "en:Chapter 06", "_00_43_55_883": "en:Chapter 07", "_00_46_39_255": "en:Chapter 08", "_00_51_26_542": "en:Chapter 09", "_00_55_10_265": "en:Chapter 10", "_01_03_48_700": "en:Chapter 11", "_01_11_24_197": "en:Chapter 12", "_01_20_14_852": "en:Chapter 13", "_01_30_47_567": "en:Chapter 14", "_01_40_31_651": "en:Chapter 15", "_01_45_24_109": "en:Chapter 16" } } ] } }The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: