EIP Discussion - Proof of Work Incentive Structure and Difficulty Bomb #1
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The following statement in the presentation doc is extremely misleading: EIP-1295 PROPOSAL BROADLY IN LINE WITH DRAFT CASPER FFG YEAR 1 ISSUANCE Brian mentioned on the Core devs call this morning as well that EIP -1295 brings inflation in-line with Casper FFG estimates for end of year 2019. This is just completely false
Focusing on year-1 averages and defining that year as (10/15/2018 to 7/12/2019) is academically dishonest and completely masks the difference in issuance. In July 2019, daily inflation under EIP-1295 is 30% higher than under the draft Casper FFG issuance. And end of year 2019 daily Casper FFG issuance is conveniently left off the chart because there would be an even greater discrepancy. Nobody forget: The authors of this EIP is a large mining operation with a massive profit incentive in getting this passed. In addition to benefiting from potentially avoiding a block reward reduction, a decrease in uncle rewards will likely help them vs. major mining pools (which have added latency to distribute shares to individual miners) |
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@cheeselord1 the dates on that spreadsheet are QUARTER STARTING dates. That is inclusive of the entire quarter. I also advocated for an incremental reduction at the hard fork date next year, with a defined issuance cap. @cheeselord1 you know who I am. Who are you? |
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I believe that Ethereums PoW has been pushed aside too long already. The impact of ASIC miners is a negative one, mainly due to the centralized parties such as Bitmain who put their profits and bcash above anything else. While I do not believe GPU mining to be as pure as many make it out to be, it is much certainly a better alternative than ASIC mining. Furthermore Ethash was built around GPUs, and a PoW change to something that capitalizes on the strengths of graphics cards seems to be a fitting solution for Ethereum in my eyes. I am not a ProgPoW shill, however they certainly seem to be one of the best current options. Ethereum mining is was led me to be consumed with cryptocurrency (in a life changing amazing way), if ETH has been an ASIC coin, that would have never happened . . along with many others. I will be discussing this a bit further in my crypto news update livestream today, I'll be asking my community to voice their 2 cents in the live chat box for those interested in reading their thoughs. |
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I have been mining Eth in my farm for about a year and half, Never have a had such a un profitable mine as I have today, with the difficulty and extreme low price of the eth network I have lost most my faith in Eth. Please fork off asics, and gain my faith back. This project had the potential of being the next Bitcoin. Its not too late, it still could be. I have current moved my Rigs to Bitcoin gold (shit project). they at least forked asics off. I have more faith in them then I do ETH, and i have been a long time ETH supporter. |
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I would like to submit that I wish Dagger Hashimoto would fork. The far reaching effects of large centralized profiteering companies, I.e. Bitmain are effecting the difficulty and making it nearly unreasonable for a gpu miner to contribute their work, their power, and their time to support the network. Having a centralized underpinning contributor processing the network goes against the initial tenants of Ethereum and to not fork, in my mind, would be hypocritical and sends a clear message that the ethereum project does not value its decentralized contributors. We are all cogs in a large wheel and we all play a valuable role in this community. To not fork and not become asic resistant will stimulate miners to become disinterested and disheartened thus placing large asic organizations in control of the network. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Keith Streeter |
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Bitmain is going to kill eth if there isn't an algo change. Whole movement is with decentralized in mind and Bitmain is the definition of centralization. Change to ProgPow and be done with it. By the time PoS and Casper are released the community might have switched to a project that is ACTUALLY for the people and not large billion dollar corporations.... |
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Just switch to progpow and be done with it! |
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Aside from the original intention to be ASIC resistance, ETH has forked for much less. GPU mining isn't necessarily a required path to decentralization, but it does help with consumer grade participation. Community participation/contribution on a project starts with mining. |
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Please fork ethereum, the sooner the better. Let's get eth back to gpu mining and screw asics.. |
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The original intent of ethash was to be memory hard and thus ASIC resistant. Fix it. |
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the fork should be already done since not only bitmain but innosilicon etc. etc. are incentiviced to start producing their ASIC miners that only destroy the average GPU miner at home that by the way those are the ones that help all this to be descentralized STOOOOOP ASICS PLEASE😡😠 |
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ETH need to fork off ASIC |
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No PoS fork please. I don't understand the PoS love among non-commercial miners. Basically non-commercial GPU miners want to kill non-commercial ASIC miners so bad they are willing to turn the entire market to extremely wealthy whales who often are basically commercial miners/investors. Back when miners were in the mid four figures I can see where the sentiment started. But heck even bitmain is now selling ASICs for $500 with PSU and a discount coupon. Anyone can more afford an ASIC than a mining rig and use a lot less power / more profit. Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite your own face... it's like working folks who killed their own unions since the 1980s then wonder why corporations now have all the control. |
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Big players like Bitmain has monopolized the cryptomining industry for such a long time now and defeating the main purpose of decentralization... Please make Ethereum great again by making it ASIC resistant for the good of the community.. |
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As a fellow GPU miner, I have to agree with most of previous comments. If the programmers, developers and the ones who consider themselves in charge (#Vitalik) of the ETHEREUM project have self respect they should consider coming back to the original idea of a decentralized CryptoCurrency/Blockchain. I honestly have the feeling of beeing ripped off here, after all the convincing of people to get onboard with the decentralized blockchain idea and then you guys letting it get hijacked by 1 or 2 entities is completely ridiculous. I only see blockchain failing because of this, those ASICS companies will pop up like mushrooms if that's the way it will go. So please guys, fork the coin for GPU PoW or at least ProgPoW this would be the most noble thing to do from your part. |
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As a miner with 1200 MH of hashrate, I joined the movement in June/July of 2017 and supported ETH through the ups and downs. Now seeing BITMAIN take over the network that we created is heartbreaking and needs to stop. I know that the majority of the community favors true decentralization and this simply cannot be achieved through ASICs. It also is disrespectful to those who truly founded the ETH network. |
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PoW mining with GPUs were a big reason that Ethereum took off. This road to PoS seems like the developers are turning their back on the users that helped them grow. Why not ETH as PoS and ETC with PoW at least? |
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Reminder: very wealthy people will wipe hash rates using GPUs. Bits Be Trippin are good folks but they are not making anyone's life easier. And they are a "relatively small" operation. 2,500 GPU farm in the USA. Sigh... |
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ETH is all ready behind the 8 ball by waiting this long. They need to get a fork going for asic's and FPGA's now, many GPU miners have sold out there eth to BTC and moved on to other cryptos because of the lack of holding true to there whitepage for asic resistance. Maybe if they do finally do something you will see us gpu miners come back and buy back in eth. |
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Eth must fork because asic mining creates centralisation, and I thought that the whole point of Cryptos was to get away from that. I also think they should fork because we must show bitmain and all the other asic miners that we won't take their bullcrap, and also to help people who use GPU and CPU to mine Eth. Eth should fork to anti asic algo ,like monero, and decrease block reward to 2 to prevent asics trying to break the alto. |
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Please fork ETH to keep it a true decentralized crypto! |
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I believe that forking off the ASICs is essential for Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies success. Changing to PoS or allowing Bitmain to take the majority of the network hashrate completely defeat the purpose of decentralization: the most important element of cryptocurrencies. |
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You should definitely do the fork, so there aren't Warehouse is full of Asic miners collecting and then flooding the trading markets with your coin. And keep it proof of work, all proof of stake will do is have people hoard you're coin to the prices Peak and they can do a massive sell-off and kill the value. Seems like both would not be great.. GPU mining for life! |
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ASIS resistance is essential for hash decentralisation. Fork or follow bitcoin path and become bitmains hostage. |
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Bitmain now asks for KYC/AML. Basically they are building a database of known miners around the world. We MUST fork off from their impact! |
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GPU mining is what made ETH possible ( not including that big investors) , they are forgetting the people that have been investing for a while now, with their money, their time, and choosing the back their coin over Bitcoin and Litecoin... |
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Currently ASIC resistance is the only path to a decentralized mining ecosystem. The argument that ASIC miners provide a higher level of security is crazy. It gives a very centralized group complete control over the network hash rate. The most secure chain is one where we can all participate in the mining process (i.e. Monero). |
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Let's fork. It'a too long. ASIC has made ethereum too centralized. |
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I lost my faith on eth long time ago. They simply don't care and they have the biggest pools to mine ethereum |
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the fork should be already done since not only bitmain but innosilicon etc. etc. are incentiviced to start producing their ASIC miners that only destroy the average GPU miner at home that by the way those are the ones that help all this to be descentralized STOOOOOP ASISC PLEASE😡😠 |
That's all fine, but if asics continue the way they are - us |
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A coin/project advertised as ASIC resistant should be ASIC resistant. When an ASIC presents itself for said coin and devs do not immediately take action and fork to render ASICs from bad actors useless, you look like frauds, sellouts and Bitmain co-conspirators. How much stock is Bitmain promising you guys for not forking? |
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I have been mining ETH for 2 years, and this year was the worst, ASICS increased the difficulty so ETH is not possible to mine profitably anymore in my country, so today I shut down all my ETH miners, i felt sad for it, did not realized that it will went down so fast, we need to fork eth and ban asic miners somehow, otherwise, the network will be held by big companies, not by us, people. |
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Bitmain and ASICs in general are anti-decentralization. The average person interested in crypto is hardly going to have an 80-100 decibel ASIC in their home. However, we pretty much all have CPUs and GPUs. You can't get much more decentralized than that. Trading the centralization of big government for that of one or a handful of mega-corporations is hardly an improvement. Ethereum needs this advantage over Bitcoin to help secure its place as the cryptocurrency the world needs as well as living up to what cryptocurrency was supposed to be all about. |
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Eth fork is at 5 past 12...if they do not do it fast bitmain Wil only get more power and make crypto as bad as today's stocks on Wallstreet... |
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I vote to fork and change the proof of work algorithm and maintain the ASIC resistance that everyone was sold on from the beginning. There will most likely be a better option in the future, but for now we have to stick with decentralization and to do that we need to stick with GPU mining. |
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I vote for a Fork! I want to keep supporting it, but its getting really hard to do that! |
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I have supported Ethereum since late 2015, and I always considered it as great technology. However, last months showed to GPU miners community how difficult is to survive with such a vast difficulty mainly delivered by ASICS hardware. Nowadays, I am not able to run my rigs in Ethereum network which I believe is one of the most technically advanced and it has a high potential to be the number one in crypto. In my opinion, it cannot be achieved if ASICS miners will dominate the network. We all know what happened to Bitcoin, one company - Bitmain controls more than 50% of hash power. That situation is far away from decentralization, which is the foundation of cryptocurrencies. Mining concentration from ASICs has resulted that it become the domain of huge data centers located in areas where electricity is cheap. As a result of ACISs, the idea of an average person mining profitably with their CPU or GPU disappeared. Bitcoin is no longer decentralized, and it requires millions of dollars of capital to participate. Is it something the Ethereum Foundation will accept and don't support the community? Bitmain's monopoly continues to grow. In the community, Bitmain has gained a reputation of a "greedy bunch," I am pretty sure that Ehereum ASICS are connected on their farm for months making GPU mining mostly unprofitable. |
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No more ASIC you can see what mess Bitmain IPO is right now, they could even go under holding all their bcash. RUN from ASIC do not WALK |
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Please vote to keep Ethereum decentralized. |
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Please fork eth to be asic resistance. |
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I have committed by time, energy and resources to mine ETH. I fell in love with ETH when I first learned of the project and it is the only thing I mine. I am not rich nor is my one rig that impressive, but wasn't the whole idea to include everyone when it came to supporting the block chain? Please fork ETH and remember that in every revolution, there are everyday people that have an idea and support that idea. |
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We published Part 2 of our series discussing the ETH Issuance and ASIC debate. Part 2 - Deflation - https://medium.com/@brianventuro/eth-issuance-part-2-deflation-13775c651a42 |
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We published Part 3 of our series discussing the ETH Issuance and ASIC debate. Part 3 - Security - https://medium.com/@brianventuro/eth-issuance-part-3-security-6506b15f803f |
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It's important not to underestimate the value of decentralization and how issuance and the mining algorithm play into it. Small scale hobbyist miners are the ones who contribute the great majority of the decentralization, and although they have low hash power individually, they collectively can add up to a large piece of the total. However, as things stand now, most hobbyist miners are barely breaking even on mining Ethereum at best. Bear in mind, they're likely not running the most efficient setups possible or paying super low electric rates the way large scale operations certainly are. Consideration needs to be taken of what will happen with these hobbyists, because if a significant issuance reduction is implemented without also eliminating and mitigating against ASICs at the same time, essentially no hobbyist miner will be able to continue operation. All that will be left are huge players and ASICs (and ASIC manufacturers). It will centralize the network enormously, both geographically and in terms of the number of individuals controlling the extant hashpower. We've already seen problems in the past with certain mining pools refusing to raise the gas limits or intentionally mining only empty blocks. There are all kinds of ways an adversarial mining cartel can screw with the network and damage its reputation if they think it's in their interests to do so. The way to combat that threat is to maintain as much decentralization as is reasonably possible between now and proof of stake. Issuance can and probably should be reduced somewhat, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of much of the network's decentralization. If issuance is to be reduced, please make sure to change the mining algorithm at least a little bit at the same time to break any true ASICs, and look at switching to ProgPOW as soon as possible to help keep mining feasible for hobbyist individuals worldwide. This is in everybody's best interests (except for ASIC manufacturers). |
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I believe that one day cryptocurrency will become main stream and we will stop depending on fiat currencies. For that to happen the mining difficulty needs to be in check. Miners exist to solve a problem but if people start exploiting it by creating asic machines, then its bad for the coin and its future. Mining should be decentralized and if a big player installed a bunch of asics, then we'll be completely dependent on them to chart the course of the coin. We can't wait for this to happen. We have to fork n disable the use of powerful machines for now and finally move to proof of stake in future. |
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I've dedicated quite a significant amount of GPU mining resource exclusively to ETH because I firmly believe in the coin's value (irrelevant to its current or previous rates), providing infrastructure to a new technology, but most importantly its decentralized model. if ETH had not been built around GPU hardware mining and only focused on ASIC I would never had invested in the first place. There is a lot to be said about the GPU mining community and the power and support it has already been providing to build and support the ETH network. I believe everyone deserves a stake in this project while maintaining the decentralized balance which cannot be maintained exclusively with ASICS. |
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People which trusted in ETH project and have invested into it from the begining have been expecting a support from the managment but still nothing! We all know that ASIC damages ETH project so please fork it asap and look after the people that help you! not a greedy Bitmain like company with interests to dominate and control crypto market. - Thank you |
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ETH should fork to keep off ASICS. A lot of people got into crypto because they could mine it, participate at the most basic level in crypto. By killing off GPU mining which is in essence what letting ASICS remain means, ETH is saying they don't want the community, that they don't value the community that has been built around the coin. ETH exploded to where it is today because of the many GPU miners who mine(d), sold, hodl(ed) and continue to contribute to it. |
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ETH was supported and secured by GPU miners from the beggining. We're still around securing the network but we are being pushed out by centralised power. We know POS is coming and if that is good for ETH than thats the path we should take but I dont see how ASICS taking over the network and ETH becoming more centralised and at risk of 51% attacks is good at all. |
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Ethereum was meant to be an ASIC resistant coin, as is what the algo was built upon, why are the devs not forking immediately? Also, proof of stake is a bad idea when coupled with the difficulty bomb. It's literally ruining the coin. What's the point of switching over when the coin is worthless? |
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I thought only politicians promised one thing and did never deliver it. We were promised an ASIC resistant mining and now have to convince developers to keep their promise. I thought the reason decentralized crypto currency was created to give community a voice. |
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It's about time to take action against ASIC mining of ETH! Get Ethereum back home to GPU miners and the decentralization they provide! |
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I listened to the conference call a few days ago and would like to provide the input that you solicited during the call as a large Ethereum miner (+500 GPUs). I know you are trying to strike a balance to ensure the miner community accepts the mining reward changes and difficulty bomb. I have a solution that I think would make this a lot easier. To be quite honest most GPU miners are now barely breaking even after electricity costs due to the current state of the market and increased ASIC mining pushing up difficulty. Any reduction in rewards without a likewise reduction in difficulty would leave only ASICs on your network. I think I can speak for the mining community by saying we would be extremely open to outright reductions in rewards with the difficulty bomb reward removal if you were to include an anti ASIC POW mining algorithm change simultaneously. We know once ASICs are off the network we will again be on equal footing with other fellow GPU miners and profits should resume to where we are not mining for a loss. I realize Anti ASIC POW change was part of an EIP a few months back but you never finished the work but did agree it would need to be part of a fork with other EIPs. It seems this would be the best time to implement a POW algorithm change along side the reward reduction and difficulty bomb removal. I know you would hands down win over the mining community if you finally took serious the amount of profits ASICs are costing the community and forked them off. I am in favor of EIP1295 only if combined in same fork to change POW algorithm to remove ASICs. |
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I agree that ethereum is build to be resistant to centralisation.Just bring strong fork and remove ASICS.GPU is good for ethereum and dont change POW to POS.In my humble opinion it ruin the coin. |
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Please fork eth to be asic resistant |
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I was reading comments, and 90% of participants want to fork against Asics. |
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none of them care about miners, they just want the price to go up because they hold their coins. |
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Time will only tell. Vitalik and Devs said that the coin is supposed to be asic resistant. The crypto community will remember whether they mean what they say or if they have changed and are back peddling on their word. |
and others
Presentation on EIP-1295 here:
https://tinyurl.com/ycjec3no
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