New Judges menu item.

[SirWumpus]

Bit more tongue'n'cheek. Suggestions about chocolate, curry, maybe other recipes and office toys? Maybe a link to a Amazon Gift wish list (too much?).

[lcn2]

LOL

[lcn2]

We have add this fun suggestion as a TODO for issue #2239

Suggestions for content for such a page, @SirWumpus, are welcome to be made in this discussion thread.

[xexyl]

Now if you excuse me I am going back to the book for the 9th time since February :-) (it would be more than that but it's been very slow due to medical issues). Not that I haven't read it many times before that. :-)

I heard about it many a time in senior school and finally read the books between I heard they were coming to film and their actual release. Brilliant stuff, I should find them again to read.

Yes you should.

Warning: many people who are very passionate about the book find many things wrong in the films that are totally inexcusable ... but at least some interesting things are noted here too, depending on how much you love the story (a funny thing is also below)

I should say that there are some great things and things I like. Unfortunately some things went too far for me to enjoy them. Jackson got some amusing things quite right at least, one noted below!

I hate the films though I tried REALLY REALLY HARD to like them. But so many things are so wrong and that includes changes to characters that are insulting. The treatment of Faramir for example:

Not if I found it on the highway would I take it

Or Gollum above Minas Morgul. He was actually trying to repent! Tolkien stated that Sam's treatment of him made Shelob's lair inevitable. It was the most tragic moment for Tolkien. Sam understood it later on but by then it was too late. Though he also gave what he thought might have happened (that's in the Letters though earlier drafts also had different plots).

But Gollum would have never touched the leaves: in The Passage of the Marshes he tells us that he hates leaves and he says it again (in the chapter I cited earlier). He also tells us in Lórien he touched them and he could not get the smell off his hand.

It seems like Jackson made all the characters worse in character than they really were. I think that's one of the things I find most unacceptable.

And how on Middle-earth can Sauron only be an Eye? What was the point of the Ring if he had no body even then? At some points he had no body but during the War of the Ring he did. I read that Peter Jackson believes he was only an Eye but actually Gollum had seen him and talks about the Black Hand having only four fingers. Tolkien also tells us what he looks like in the Letters.

Even if Elrond would have let his daughter go to face the Nazgûl she could have never done so. Glorfindel could because he had almost the same power as the Maiar in spirit (though there's more about that).

On the other hand the thing Gimli says about dwarves coming from the ground is a good example where he got something right: it is referenced in the appendixes. That is a funny thing and a great reference.

The graphics and visuals were excellent too.

But as someone who is extremely passionate about the book I just can't reconcile with the films on a whole. There are many other things wrong but those above are ones I find really upsetting. Well not the Glorfindel/Arwen one it's just an interesting note.

I found it really sad that he did not include the Scouring of the Shire. Christopher Lee also found that odd. And it was an important part of the War as it showed that even the Shire was not unaffected by it. I would have loved to see that in film I must say. Ah well.

I know many love it and that's great! I'm happy for them I just wish I could too.

Funny thing: I once had someone tell me that The Lord of the Rings was not fiction; it was a true story! Who knew?

I too was in hospital (last year) and trying to read The Silmarillion during that stay; its really is a slow burn.

Well I was at least not in hospital: just a surgery centre. But I have had this surgery twice before and this is the only time it has taken this long. Glad you recovered!

I love TS (The Silmarillion) but I have only read it in full once. The first five volumes of HoMe are about the earlier drafts. Volume V also has the Etymologies. My favourite is XII: lots of great things though more recently (as I told Landon about) the Nature of Middle-earth was also published. Christopher graced it before he left for the Halls of Mandos.

.. and now I really am off.

[xexyl]

Smaug's original name was Pryftan

With all the talk of food I flipped Pryftan in my head to Pan Fry or Fry'n'Tan (Smaug side hustle is dragon breath sun beds).

I'm trying to remember the source of the name ... I was thinking Welsh at first but I don't think that's it. Something in the UK anyway. I wonder why I can't think of it. Anyway it's not a language that I guess many people speak nowadays.

Some of the other names in Hobbit were of Scandinavian in origin.

[xexyl]

Smaug's original name was Pryftan

With all the talk of food I flipped Pryftan in my head to Pan Fry or Fry'n'Tan (Smaug side hustle is dragon breath sun beds).

Of course there's also something along your lines in Hobbit! You know what I mean, right?

[SirWumpus]

I can't speak to the depth of detail you clearly have for LOTR between the books and the movies (maybe with repeat reading I'd get there). I'm just happy I read the Hobbit and LOTR before the movies so as not to taint story.

[xexyl]

I can't speak to the depth of detail you clearly have for LOTR between the books and the movies (maybe with repeat reading I'd get there). I'm just happy I read the Hobbit and LOTR before the movies so as not to taint story.

That makes sense. Though I don't think the order really matters. Maybe to some people it would.

Here's a fun fact that's not in HoMe that I only know because I am a logophile.

If you recall there's the Ent Quickbeam. He was given that as a nickname after he said yes to a question that an elder was asking but before they finished the question.

But actually it's a word too: another term for mountain ash.

But what is that?

--

a small deciduous tree of the rose family, with compound leaves, white flowers, and red berries. Compare with rowan.

--

There were rowans in his home.

[xexyl]

Bit more tongue'n'cheek. Suggestions about chocolate, curry, maybe other recipes and office toys? Maybe a link to a Amazon Gift wish list (too much?).

Hahahaha. I love it! I think I can have some fun with this one too ... though I think your ideas are nice. Well besides the citrus and various other things I don't like of course :-) (but I am sure that Landon does).

But of course more important things have to be done first and will be.

[xexyl]

And I will try and add some thoughts if I can sometime soon ... not today and maybe not even this week but I'll try and think on it if I can.

But now I am back to reading a bit before I get some food. Good day to you both!

[lcn2]

Alas, it has been pointed out by an IOCCC judge that the guidelines do state:

More than one IOCCC judge has been known to bribe another IOCCC judge into voting for a winning submission by offering a bit high quality chocolate. This technique is highly discouraged for use by non-IOCCC judges.

And so the anticipated "fun" of a "Fixing the judges sub-menu" has been discouraged. We do understand that this idea was intended for good fun, nevertheless .. sigh .. it was recommended that this not be explicitly added to a menu.

Perhaps something less explicit can be added to the guidelines and that the above guideline text be modified. That may be a more subtile way to do this.

[xexyl]

@xexyl

I also wonder that this menu option idea is not trying to bribe judges.

It certainly was about bribing compensating influencing strongly suggesting nudging in tongue-n-cheek manner of speaking, without actually suggesting anything specific in return for future consdieration warm fuzzies (does some one need a new fluffy bath robe?), given the reference in the Guidelines about chocolate (and curry as I recall). After all it is often pointed out there are intentional loop holes in the guidelines.

BTW there is no mention about bribing compensating influencing strongly suggesting nudging and winking to Judges significant others about whispers and gossip that might come up during a meal, caffeinated beverage and sharing of sugar coated torus'.

So no openly and untoward happenings in the proximity of Judges shall ever be implied (or inferred), phase of the moon not withstanding, concerning a Judges' duties during those moments of judging (without being judged in return) for an indeterminate period of judgement.

Maybe, maybe .. but that would necessarily imply that the judging was not done anonymously .. which of course is not the case.

Your points are of course valid though. I guess, however, that it's different from what I interpreted. Maybe you meant 'fixing the judges' in the context of fixing a contest? I did not look at it that way owing to the fact you did not say 'contest'.

Fun reference to White Face. Do you mean the Full Moon? :-)

[SirWumpus]

Maybe you meant 'fixing the judges' in the context of fixing a contest?

I can neither confirm nor deny such thoughts.

[xexyl]

Maybe you meant 'fixing the judges' in the context of fixing a contest?

I can neither confirm nor deny such thoughts.

.. which confirms it for me of course ... whatever people say to when they use those words :-) Oh sure it be interpreted as both but it is hinting at something and no need to hint if it wasn't what the person wanted to know.

Not but what :-)[0] that's not how I interpreted it personally. It was something very different to me and since (as noted) judging is done anonymously it can't possibly work anyway .. though of course the thought of having it in the menu based on your suggestion could certainly influence whether it should be there or not!

And why not have it as the way I interpreted it? We could call it something else even to offset any concern of 'bribing' or something like that.

[0] Landon of course is certain of what that means but since I guess you don't encounter those words very often it means 'nevertheless' .. though perhaps you did know it. Btw how old are you if you don't mind answering? I turned 42 on 14 February.

[SirWumpus]

Fixing the Judges was intentional wording (to the point and fits nicely as a menu item). I know that the Judges would never seriously succumb to such things (given how secretive they've been about number of past entries and shredding of paper), so for me the whole idea was meant to be silly fun at attempts to, stories about, possible other wordy / worldly ideas, etc. Anyone considering it seriously is either naive or serious need of a new hobby.

how old are you if you don't mind answering?

Three score less three.

[xexyl]

Fixing the Judges was intentional wording (to the point and fits nicely as a menu item). I know that the Judges would never seriously succumb to such things (given how secretive they've been about number of past entries and shredding of paper), so for me the whole idea was meant to be silly fun at attempts to, stories about, possible other wordy / worldly ideas, etc. Anyone considering it seriously is either naive or serious need of a new hobby.

I knew it was all in good fun of course ...and indeed a great pun (which I love!) .. which is why I did not think it could possibly amount to bribing either, when it was brought up yesterday.

how old are you if you don't mind answering?

Three score less three.

So ... 20 * 3 - 3 == 57. Okay. Thanks!

[lcn2]

See FAQ 5.7 - How may I support the IOCCC, which is also referenced the revised IOCCC guidelines along with some "fun" comments about ineffective "bribes". :-)

[xexyl]

See FAQ 5.7 - How may I support the IOCCC, which is also referenced the revised IOCCC guidelines along with some "fun" comments about ineffective "bribes". :-)

So .. are they ready for review or should I hold off? At this time I'm too tired to work on technical details though it's quite possible that'll change before you're awake. Even so it'd be nice if I could limit the number of times I have to go through the files ..
I will however check that FAQ out and see if I can connect it to the guidelines too.

Feel free to review as we are doing .. if there are conflicting edits, then we will git resolve them and/or discuss.

Well I was more concerned that if you're editing them they might need to be reviewed again?

[lcn2]

See FAQ 5.7 - How may I support the IOCCC, which is also referenced the revised IOCCC guidelines along with some "fun" comments about ineffective "bribes". :-)

As far as the FAQ: it IS fun but what if we want to simply buy a gift not anonymously and nothing to do with the contest but rather for friendship? The friendship, wisdom, advice, fun, humour (jokes and otherwise), your life story (or parts of it), history of C and UNIX (and how you knew Dennis himself and have a very cool thing from him and ...) you have provided has given me so much joy and much more and I have wanted to get something for you .. I have some ideas but since the contest is judged anonymously and since I have already mentioned one of them to you I don't see how it would equate to bribing or anything like it. Hell, as I said, if you lived round here my mum would love to make you her cake! She told me that some years back now. Of course you don't live round here but still ... nothing to do with the contest: just friendship and kindness.

Sure. Our wording was intended to dissuade people from thinking that by giving us a gift they will somehow improve the chances of achieving a winning IOCCC entry.

We go to significant lengths to NOT KNOW who submits something or if they even registered to enter the IOCCC. Your winning IOCCC entries, @xexyl and @SirWumpus were genuinely won on the basis of your submissions.

We (the IOCCC judges) have learned to doubt authorship hints and put them aside. People do look at the previous year and attempt to mimic previous winning entries - often without success. For example, we would not be surprised to see people sending in submissions with cake recipes. We did get variants if the ioccc sizing tool (it came as no surprise as to how "crashy" some of those attempts were) as well.

You may have observed that we have asked you to NOT tell us of your IOCCC28 plans, or even if you plan to submit. We don't want someone to think that should you happen to submit a winning entry for IOCCC28, that your work on this and the mkiocccentry repo had any bearing: The only think that should matter will be the quality of your submission, should to choose to do so.

As far as a "I'd like to do something nice": that is fine. We don't mind. The language in the rules (such as rule 22) and the guidelines tires to help guide people to do the correct thing.

BTW: As you may or may not know, we are undergoing a major home construction project. The items in the Amazon gift list are items that we lack in our soon-to-be-finished kitchen. I'm going to encourage Leo to consider adding the same if he chooses.

We are not fully sure that the language around gifts and bribes has the right level of humor and tact. We plan to try and improve that over time. Don't let that fact dissuade you from continue to propose edits, however.

[lcn2]

See FAQ 5.7 - How may I support the IOCCC, which is also referenced the revised IOCCC guidelines along with some "fun" comments about ineffective "bribes". :-)

As far as the FAQ: it IS fun but what if we want to simply buy a gift not anonymously and nothing to do with the contest but rather for friendship? The friendship, wisdom, advice, fun, humour (jokes and otherwise), your life story (or parts of it), history of C and UNIX (and how you knew Dennis himself and have a very cool thing from him and ...) you have provided has given me so much joy and much more and I have wanted to get something for you .. I have some ideas but since the contest is judged anonymously and since I have already mentioned one of them to you I don't see how it would equate to bribing or anything like it. Hell, as I said, if you lived round here my mum would love to make you her cake! She told me that some years back now. Of course you don't live round here but still ... nothing to do with the contest: just friendship and kindness.
Right now I cannot do that (get you something) but I would actually like to. As I already mentioned what it is (more than once) you'd know it was from me anyway but I know you'd enjoy it too.

Oh and in a way I have already given you some things! I told you about some Tolkien books you did not know about and one I know you even bought, one that was blessed by Christopher before he went to the Halls of Mandos in 2020 (when my heart nearly stopped). You know what I mean of course: The Nature of Middle-earth.

So .. already I gave you something and that's not bribing so why not extend it to something I can get for you? :-) I would love that .. I can't right this moment but I'd love to and since you now have a way to buy something for you on Amazon I could do that in time.

This is as I'm sure you know meant from my heart to yours and has nothing to do with the contest but rather what you have given me. I did not mention it above but another one is a privilege and many opportunities to help you.

Fun fact: The Amazon wish list allows for other items not listed to be added. Hopefully we won't get icky stuff because of that.

Nevertheless it items listed are things needed.

There is NO obligation to do anything with the list. And we hope to improve the language around the wish list to express that in the IOCCC humor style.

[xexyl]

See FAQ 5.7 - How may I support the IOCCC, which is also referenced the revised IOCCC guidelines along with some "fun" comments about ineffective "bribes". :-)

As far as the FAQ: it IS fun but what if we want to simply buy a gift not anonymously and nothing to do with the contest but rather for friendship? The friendship, wisdom, advice, fun, humour (jokes and otherwise), your life story (or parts of it), history of C and UNIX (and how you knew Dennis himself and have a very cool thing from him and ...) you have provided has given me so much joy and much more and I have wanted to get something for you .. I have some ideas but since the contest is judged anonymously and since I have already mentioned one of them to you I don't see how it would equate to bribing or anything like it. Hell, as I said, if you lived round here my mum would love to make you her cake! She told me that some years back now. Of course you don't live round here but still ... nothing to do with the contest: just friendship and kindness.
Right now I cannot do that (get you something) but I would actually like to. As I already mentioned what it is (more than once) you'd know it was from me anyway but I know you'd enjoy it too.

Oh and in a way I have already given you some things! I told you about some Tolkien books you did not know about and one I know you even bought, one that was blessed by Christopher before he went to the Halls of Mandos in 2020 (when my heart nearly stopped). You know what I mean of course: The Nature of Middle-earth.
So .. already I gave you something and that's not bribing so why not extend it to something I can get for you? :-) I would love that .. I can't right this moment but I'd love to and since you now have a way to buy something for you on Amazon I could do that in time.
This is as I'm sure you know meant from my heart to yours and has nothing to do with the contest but rather what you have given me. I did not mention it above but another one is a privilege and many opportunities to help you.

Fun fact: The Amazon wish list allows for other items not listed to be added. Hopefully we won't get icky stuff because of that.

Nevertheless it items listed are things needed.

There is NO obligation to do anything with the list. And we hope to improve the language around the wish list to express that in the IOCCC humor style.

I knew all that .. though of course I'd never do the 'icky stuff' - obviously. I was more thinking of the 'anonymous' part.

Anyway that's for another time. I'm afraid I have some additional things i have to look at in the near future.

[xexyl]

See FAQ 5.7 - How may I support the IOCCC, which is also referenced the revised IOCCC guidelines along with some "fun" comments about ineffective "bribes". :-)

As far as the FAQ: it IS fun but what if we want to simply buy a gift not anonymously and nothing to do with the contest but rather for friendship? The friendship, wisdom, advice, fun, humour (jokes and otherwise), your life story (or parts of it), history of C and UNIX (and how you knew Dennis himself and have a very cool thing from him and ...) you have provided has given me so much joy and much more and I have wanted to get something for you .. I have some ideas but since the contest is judged anonymously and since I have already mentioned one of them to you I don't see how it would equate to bribing or anything like it. Hell, as I said, if you lived round here my mum would love to make you her cake! She told me that some years back now. Of course you don't live round here but still ... nothing to do with the contest: just friendship and kindness.

Sure. Our wording was intended to dissuade people from thinking that by giving us a gift they will somehow improve the chances of achieving a winning IOCCC entry.

Of course.

We go to significant lengths to NOT KNOW who submits something or if they even registered to enter the IOCCC. Your winning IOCCC entries, @xexyl and @SirWumpus were genuinely won on the basis of your submissions.

Yes. I know. That's why I was wondering how the 'fix the judges' idea was even relevant to the guideline in question - it doesn't seem like it as judging is anonymous anyway.

We (the IOCCC judges) have learned to doubt authorship hints and put them aside. People do look at the previous year and attempt to mimic previous winning entries - often without success. For example, we would not be surprised to see people sending in submissions with cake recipes. We did get variants if the ioccc sizing tool (it came as no surprise as to how "crashy" some of those attempts were) as well.

Good that you have. I would be amused if someone did that (cake) too yes. Amused but also would love to see others (though as for chocolate cake it doesn't get better than this if it's this kind .. I mean chocolate cheesecake or something might be but that's an entirely different thing). I don't really know why I did it .. it certainly was partly the fact you like things that make you want to eat good chocolate but this was kind of different and not in the code itself. But it's such a good recipe that I think it's great it's 'out there'. It should be. I have to say I was hoping that it might be that your cook might try it out for you and maybe even see pictures but whether that would have happened I cannot know as we have the pandemic :( But as for the inclusion of that that might have been the only real thing I was hoping for with that. If 'hope' is the right word: I'm not sure. I just hope you do get to try it sometime soon and I"m happy to answer questions and I'd love to hear what you think and see pictures. It does take work but it's very worth it: though it's probably good if you have someone to share it with! It's very rich and big and filling.

As for the iocccsize tool I know in 2018 one did win .. though of course that was not the entry itself.

You may have observed that we have asked you to NOT tell us of your IOCCC28 plans, or even if you plan to submit. We don't want someone to think that should you happen to submit a winning entry for IOCCC28, that your work on this and the mkiocccentry repo had any bearing: The only think that should matter will be the quality of your submission, should to choose to do so.

I did indeed and I respect that and will not say anything in the matter. And I also am glad you're thinking of those things. Though I might argue in a way it's the opposite of 'quality' but in other ways it is quality. In both cases it does not change your meaning of course.

As far as a "I'd like to do something nice": that is fine. We don't mind. The language in the rules (such as rule 22) and the guidelines tires to help guide people to do the correct thing.

Thanks. I just wanted to be sure. As below there are things I have to consider first but it has crossed my mind a number of times.

BTW: As you may or may not know, we are undergoing a major home construction project. The items in the Amazon gift list are items that we lack in our soon-to-be-finished kitchen. I'm going to encourage Leo to consider adding the same if he chooses.

I remember you saying a few things yes. It occurred to me I should probably replace the battery on the other UPS as it's over 5 years old and this way I can replace the two at about the same time. But that'll have to wait a month or so first.

We are not fully sure that the language around gifts and bribes has the right level of humor and tact. We plan to try and improve that over time. Don't let that fact dissuade you from continue to propose edits, however.

I look forward to seeing what you have in mind. I will maybe look at those files but not look at them as much as others. Or maybe I will. It depends on how I feel. Thanks for the note.

[lcn2]

Well I was more concerned that if you're editing them they might need to be reviewed again?

Probably .. just prior to the "code freeze" a spot check of the critical areas (rules, guidelines, FAQ, contact, top level index) would be in order.

Until then (the "code freeze" ), the ongoing moving target of what are the rules and guidelines needs to be monitored and reviewed.

[xexyl]

Well I was more concerned that if you're editing them they might need to be reviewed again?

Probably .. just prior to the "code freeze" a spot check of the critical areas (rules, guidelines, FAQ, contact, top level index) would be in order.

Until then (the "code freeze" ), the ongoing moving target of what are the rules and guidelines needs to be monitored and reviewed.

In that case I'll try doing it tomorrow or the next day. Thanks for clarifying.

[xexyl]

Well I was more concerned that if you're editing them they might need to be reviewed again?

Probably .. just prior to the "code freeze" a spot check of the critical areas (rules, guidelines, FAQ, contact, top level index) would be in order.
Until then (the "code freeze" ), the ongoing moving target of what are the rules and guidelines needs to be monitored and reviewed.

In that case I'll try doing it tomorrow or the next day. Thanks for clarifying.

Did the rules ... probably some discussion needed but many technical fixes made (and formatting fixes and improvements too) plus some links added (FAQ updated - namely names).