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<a href="http://www.foxnews.com/huckabee/">Huckabee</a> FOX News June 16, 2013 3:00am-4:00am EDT </h1>
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3:00 am </div>
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i'll see you for the first news break. tweet me. i'll tweet you back. huckabee is now. >> you don't have to have done anything wrong. you simply the have to eventually fall under suspicion. >> he leaked classified information on the government surveillance of americans. is edward snowden a hero or trader? and is searching for terrorists by monitoring millions of phone calls, e-mails and web searches effective or more like trying to find a needle in a hay stack? plus, $108 for antibiotic ointment, $77 for gauze pads. does obamacare address excessive healthcare costs. >> no, no, and no. </div>
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3:01 am </div>
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if anything, it will raise the cost. ladies and gentlemen, governor mike huckabee. [ applause ] thank you. thank you very much. and welcome to huckabee from the fox news studios in new york city and a very happy father's day to everyone. well, at least to the fathers. all right. i have long advocated that we ought to pace the fair tax. that would eliminate taxes on income, saving, dividends, capital gains, inheritance and investments and replace these penalties on our productive with a tax on our consumption at the retail level. there's an important benefit that we, i think can all really embrace. it eliminates the irs. that's a good reason for it, </div>
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3:02 am </div>
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right? [ applause ] >> well, in light of the illegal and unethical activities of the irs in relationship to conservative, pro-life and proisrael groups and the disregard for the taxes they take from us by spending $50 million online dancing classes and swag bags, maybe, just maybe the public is ready to end the legalized theft of our finances and our freedom. you see, another benefit of getting rid of the irs is stopping the government threat of losing tax-exempt status to shut down the voices of churches. now, i want you to think carefully about this and let me say, i doubt everybody is going to agree with me, but maybe, maybe it's time that churches quit caring about their tax-exempt status and care more about speaking with absolute freedom and clarity on the morale issues of the day. i brought this issue up last </div>
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3:03 am </div>
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week. when i spoke to the pastors at the southern baptist convention in houston. now, i know i have never given a dime of my tithe because of the tax consequences. because for christians giving isn't about the getting the governments blessing but gods [ applause ] >> i mean, if somebody gives money to god solely for the tax benefits, then maybe that person ought to keep their money. they frankly need it worse than god does. you see, the empty threat that caused a pastor or church to water down their message because of fear of preprizels for the irs, that would stop. it isn't the place of any agency of the government to evaluate the content of the pastor's sermon and determine if that is acceptable to the government. even if the fair tax isn't passed immediately, why not end </div>
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3:04 am </div>
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the federal government subsidies to all entities and organizations religious or not and let freedom ring. now -- [ applause ] >> if you believe in something political, spiritual, even economic, then pay for it. leave the government out of it. for those that fear the churches would pay huge taxes, fear not, they use their funds for staff, and ministries. there's little if anything left over for most congregations. it wouldn't mean contributions wouldn't be deductible so there's already a limit so the benefit isn't that big. as daniel rejected the king's food maybe people of faith ought to reject the government's goodies but gain absolute freedom and instead of worrying about whether our message is threatened with government </div>
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3:05 am </div>
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penalty, we just tell the government to put it where the sun don't shine [ applause ] >> what we say and what we do in our churches ought to be driven by our faith, not by the government limits on our freedom. [ applause ] >> well, edward snowden, the former federal intelligence employee who leaked the information about the national security agency surveillance program on americans told the south china morning post that he's neither a traitor nor a hero. he says he's just an american but that hasn't stopped the debate here at home. so is snowden a hero or a traitor? bill is a former official with more than 30 years in the agency. he became a whistle blower and re-signed in 2001 after the program he created for foreign intelligence gathering was turned inward on this country. </div>
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3:06 am </div>
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b steven yates is a former deputy assistant to vice president chaney and ceo of d.c. international advisory. he spent the first five years of his career at the national security agency. gentlemen. glad to have both of you here. >> thank you. >> bill, let me start with you. i don't think this is really so much about edward snowden as it is about the programs and their value to the country and whether or not they violate the constitutional rights of americans but i do want to ask, if your view, is edward snowden a good guy or a bad guy? >> well, i certainly think that what he has done in exposing these programs is a great public service. this kind of -- what i think of as unconstitutional activity by the government needs to be addressed by the public openly so we can, as a country, decide whether or not we want our </div>
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3:07 am </div>
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government to do this kind of activity. after all, collecting this kind of knowledge about the citizenry is dangerous for the government to have. >> you left -- you left the nsa back in 2001 because you thought that there were some things happening even then, this was 12 years ago that crossed the line. what line did it cross and what was the final straw for you and you said that's it, i'm done? >> well it was because they started collecting billing data from the telecoms. the one that was initially participating was at&t and they were given 200 million records of u.s. citizens talking to other u.s. citizens. that allowed you to reconstruct their entire calling community therefore you would know who is doing what with whom. so you could begin to reconstruct the tea party, any kind of organization you want. and then begin to see who is central to that organization or </div>
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3:08 am </div>
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not and target those accordingly. >> steve, how valuable is this information, first of all in it's collection? and how damaging is it that edward snowden has revealed the -- at least the parameters of the program? >> well, my assumption is that the data is extremely valuable in the work that the intelligence community is trying to do but it's not entirely their decision to make about what scope they have to gather and pursue leads here in the united states. that's something that is completely dependent upon what the judicial branch of government says and what the legislative branch says in exercising oversight. >> one of the questions is if it's so valuable how come it didn't stop boston or have anything to do with the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, fort hood, little rock -- there are so many instances and it had nothing to do with stopping it so why are we collecting all of this data and if it's so valuable how come to this day we still haven't </div>
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3:09 am </div>
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said that fort hood is terrorism? those are legitimate things to be asking our government. tell us why we need this data. it doesn't seem to be working all that well for us right now. >> well, fair enough. i think it is never going to be a good tool to detect on going or forth coming attacks. what it has been when properly used and we could possibly find out it hasn't been properly used is after something has happened -- after a major lead has come in, people can go back and analyze this data to find out if someone acted alone or if there had been a pat herb of communications -- pattern of communications that could lead to a broader network. it's the post hoc utility that it could be used in the right hands and right constraints. >> let me pose this question to both of you. bill i'll start with you and then i want steve to answer. let's say this 29-year-old that's not a government </div>
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3:10 am </div>
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employee, he's a contractor and he's not a high level official. if he can get his hands on this and extract it obviously there's a lot of people that could get to this information. what gives us any confidence at all that somebody doesn't decide to manipulate the next presidential election by digging up all the phone records, the internet records, every photo that every presidential candidate has had and essentially blackmail everybody and completely control an election? comfort me here. bill, let me start with you and steve i'd like an answer from you. >> see, that's the fundamental problem with government having all of this knowledge about the population. one of the things that troubled me with the testimony that's come into congress about the irs activity by attacking or targeting individuals, one individual giving a testimony there said they were asked a question by the irs, what is your relationship with this other person and they gave a name. well, how do they know there's a </div>
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3:11 am </div>
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relationship? well if you look into the met at a data of the program they know all of the relationships. so the question is how does the irs know about that relationship? they need to answer that because it looks to me like that's a result of this program. they're taking knowledge and redirecting it in a political way to target organizations that they don't particularly care for. >> all right steve, i'd like your response to this same thing. i do think it's fundamental. more important than who edward snowden is it's who else out there has this information. what could they do with it? >> they could do a tremendous amount with it. there's two pill laars it must rest. one is trust and one is targeting. any notion of trust in the federal government gathering and respecting the information it has is blown. there's going to have to be a major effort to restore trust. the nsa is very different from the irs but this whole general notion of trust in what the </div>
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3:12 am </div>
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government is doing is lost at the moment. targeting is where the current environment failed hmiserably i making sure that we're looking more narrowly at people that are real threats and real challenges. it's unacceptable to take a vacuum cleaner and hold on to the information. we have to have targeting in order for people to have trust and this to work. if you drowned yourself in information then boston bombers and other people basically hide in plain sight. >> all right. well, first of all, i don't think there's a lot of stuff on me but just in case there is, i don't want them holding on to it, okay. >> right. >> all right. bill and steven you'll rejoin us in a few minutes but first, should edward snowden be charged and tried as the traitor. the government has a better chance convicting him as a thief. he'll explain why when we come back. i'd like to hear from you. go to mikehuckabee.c </div>
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3:13 am </div>
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3:14 am </div>
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3:15 am </div>
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3:16 am </div>
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