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Distinguish never-spawned from never-submitted. #6067
Distinguish never-spawned from never-submitted. #6067
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Not sure this message is easy to understand
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Indeed, but how to describe what's happening concisely?
Basically, the flow (on this branch of the graph) came to a halt at this point because the task was removed earlier by suicide trigger or
cylc remove
. That definitely warrants some kind of log message.I'll change it to this (subject to further litigation, of course):
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Actually, "flow blocked at" might be better.
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I don't like "flow blocked" I'm afraid! How about:
Or just
as it was the "already used in this flow" that I think doesn't make much sense
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I think "flow blocked" is better than your two suggestions - it correctly indicates that the flow will not continue here because the task was removed.
"Skipping" suggests the flow will skip over the removed task, which is not the case.
"Spawning" (as you'll have seen in the chat) is I think being expunged from user terminology.
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OK, I think options are as follows (or some close variant thereof):
Personally I think in this instance "flow blocked" is more user-friendly, in that it is more or less self-explanatory, compared to "not spawning".
But given that @oliver-sanders agrees "not spawning" is correct, and (as I've just shown) spawning probably has to remain a user-facing term, perhaps we could just stick with that.
It needs to be logged at INFO level though, to explain why the flow does not continue here, at this time.
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That's Cylc 7!
I'm very confused by these comments. It was your own argument that users should not need to understand the management (insertion or removal) of task proxies or task pool logic in general which I got on board with. It was a primary goal of SoD to remove the need for us to communicate this internal implementation detail, and a necessary side effect as SoD would make it harder for users to monitor the task pool itself. That's why spawning was retired right,
s/spawn/set-outputs
, users shouldn't need to understand spawning, because SoD will ensure the task proxy is always there when needed right? E.G. #2143. I agreed with you on this at the time, it was a good idea!To quote your own proposal:
I appreciate this is going back a few years now, maybe reality crept in and the thinking has changed. Perhaps it was a bit ambitions to presume we could hide the internal logic. Maybe we should write up the SoD model and communicate it to users as essential reading? We could do with writing this up in any case.
I'm not convinced it does. We are trying to communicate to users the graph model, not the internal SoD implementation (or at least I thought we were).
Take this graph for example:
If the user runs
cylc remove //x
, they will get a message along the lines of "x removed".They don't need to see four "not re-spawning x" messages in a row as the graph proceeds, there is no new information in these messages. Moreover, it isn't communicating anything to them about the graph. Of course x isn't be re-spawned, I removed it! On purpose!
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My approval still stands of course, I'll leave you two to find something you can agree on.
I was trying to overt a terminology argument not to stoke one, I accepted the original phrasing.
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I just think "flow blocked" sounds too negative and some users will see it and think something has gone wrong
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OK @MetRonnie, let's try to agree. I don't see "flow blocked" as negative, but perhaps we could add more information to explain the reason for it.
We've established that "skipping" isn't right. Are you happy with either of these, or do you have another suggestion?:
I like "flow blocked" because it automatically conveys the fact that the flow will not continue from this point. But having argued that "spawn" is still needed to explain how flows evolve, I don't mind if we use that here too.
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