Land MVP

[nelsonic]

Our main objective at this point is to get the Trees started ... because they cannot be "rushed".
If we consider our basic requirements for Land:

• Water
• Fertile soil
• Sunshine
• Relative proximity to transport network

Then we could easily "MVP" the project with a tiny amount of land.
e.g: http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/cata28-moinho-da-floresta/

More river-side property: http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/properties/?cat=64+54+54+54+54+54-&landmin=0&landmax=0&order=ASC&v=

[nelsonic]

Last weekend after visiting #29 we noticed that the land adjacent to theirs is for sale:

The reason this would be a really good idea is:

• proximity to organic/sustainable mini-farm with like-minded people
• we can ask the Ecoaldeia people to look after our trees (seedlings) while they are growing Trees MVP ? #28

[nelsonic]

This is a really good MVP land: http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/moinho-da-fadagosa/

The biggest advantage being that it's in a "protected" area so has "rolling hills" as the view (no other buildings in sight) ...

DCG130-1_ Moinho-da-Fadagosa–PurePortugal.pdf

[nelsonic]

@iteles can we book a visit to go and see this land?
http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/trd39-waterfall/ next week when we are "up north" I think it would make a great MVP land given the amount of water "all year round" ... and we can buy it for cash ... thoughts?

[nelsonic]

This land is a bit more expensive and smaller but the views are incredible: http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/pip50-sao-pedro-cima/

This one would be pretty good given that it has two houses for re-building, 360-degree views (no neighbours) and an "abundant" natural spring all year round...

[nelsonic]

also, iBet you didn't know this was a thing: https://youtu.be/-HH_uRgwEVY?t=13s 😜
And yet, I would hypothesise that it's going to be a massive thing when VR-Exercise kicks off. 🤔

[iteles]

Have you had any luck booking any of these @nelsonic? I've found them to be pretty unresponsive.

[nelsonic]

@iteles I have not attempted to book any viewings for these bits of land because I was waiting for a reply from you ... do you like any of the listings enough to drive out there to see them...?

[nelsonic]

@Jbarget recommended https://evengreener.com/can-o-worms-3-tier-wormery-canowvpwi as a compost bin. I'm seriously considering it for our veranda in London... 🤔

[nelsonic]

http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/hipp55-riverfront-plot/

http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/sgh45-freixial-rustic-plot/

http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/hrv79-mondego-watermill

http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/case96-old-river-factory/

[nelsonic]

Pure Portugal now have a better categorisation for the exact type of land I want to buy:
http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/properties/?cat=71+81+54+54+54+54-

[iteles]

?cat=71+81+54+54+54+54- ... slightly cryptic.

That URL doesn't seem to translate to any visible filtering either, handy!

Good that they're making improvements though.

[nelsonic]

This is a bit more expensive ... €160k
http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/grd160-quinta-do-beco/

But has 1,360m2 of construction area ... i.e. retirement village / eco-resort size!
The air quality is ridiculously good and it has it's own source of spring water.
Only "downside" is that it's 2h drive from Porto:

But the thing to remember is that distance will be kinda irrelevant in the not too distant future ...
https://waymo.com

This is also rather nice: http://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/alm250-anta-cova but €250k
in the hills with awesome sun exposure, panoramic views and plenty of water for irrigation.

I get the feeling that things are getting more expensive quite quickly ... 💸 😞
It used to be possible to buy land under €50k ... now, not so much ... 😕
Gotta stay focussed on our current plans so we can afford to do "Phase Two"!

[Jbarget]

this is very exciting

[nelsonic]

15.9ha land bordering the Ponsul River (which feeds into the Tejo) price: €54,000
https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/vvl54-terreno-com-ruinas/

Map: https://www.google.pt/maps/dir/Lisbon+Airport,+Lisbon/Vila+Velha+de+Rod%C3%A3o

[iteles]

Turns out the land above doesn't actually border the river, there is a strip of land between it and the water #fakenews

But it's exactly the kind of thing we need!!

[nelsonic]

@iteles are you referring to the email reply that we got to my enquiry?
That enquiry was for LNG14: https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/lng14-terra-vista-de-rio

I enquired about because it's 8.1HA and "only" €14,750 😮

(i.e. it would be a "bargain" which I would buy "on-the-spot" if it had river access!!)

The reason I didn't share the link to LNG14 in this thread before sending the enquiry
was that I thought it was "too good to be true" and didn't want to "hype" it.
The listing for LNG14 does say "river view" not access. so it's not #fakenews ... 🙄

New Enquiry: VVL54

Sent a new enquiry for VVL54 (the one I shared above) https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/vvl54-terreno-com-ruinas

Note: the reason I did not send an enquiry for VVL54 last week was that I didn't want to get distracted from our current focus ... 🎯

We can certainly "afford" to invest in Land, but we cannot afford to "develop" it.
IMO there is no point going to visit any Land until we:
a) finish our current "project"(s)
b) have a plan for what to do with the Land (with some sort of "return on investment"...)

I just occasionally like to look at Land as a "Pomodoro Break" because I find it motivating.

[nelsonic]

This is wow: https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/lee259-tapada-do-velho

A little stone ruin and land with 7.4ha boasting 500m of lakefront, a beautiful location on one of the last undeveloped lakes in Europe (Idanha-a-Nova lake, in Central Portugal). This one of a kind property is bordered by bodies of water on three sides.

[iteles]

😱

[nelsonic]

@iteles want to write a Business Plan for this land and "raise" the money from Friends & Family...? 🤔
It's certainly not "cheap", but the price of this land is not going to go down.
Considering the electronic physical access controls we are building for Braga,
we could setup self-contained container homes on this land which would be 100% remotely managed and pay a local crew to do "turn over".
see: dwyl/tiny-house#1 Warning: Image heavy! don't open on Mobile or Slow net!

Market validation: https://hostunusual.com/categories/off-grid

Back-of-the envelope costs and assumptions are:

• €260k to buy the land
• €100k to prepare 4 container homes:
  • €3k to buy, prepare and transport each container
  • €15k "conversion" including windows, insulation, electrical, sanitation and custom-made furniture.
    • I have a design in mind for a very versatile 1 double bed, 4 fold-down singles + sofa bed
      that will mean each container can accommodate 7 people. (so most families).
  • €4k solar panels
  • €1k "security" (we need decent cameras to monitor the access to the place so people don't steal bits off the container like the solar panels etc...)
  • €2k land prep including gravel for car parking etc.
• €5/hour labour cost for cleaning person x 2h per "turn around".
• Market it as a self-directed "off-grid creative retreat" for families, teams and eco-curious couples.
• Cost per night: €30
• Minimum stay: 1 night. (but then they have to pay €10 cleaning fee)
• Average stay: 1 week: €210 (cleaning included)
• Expected occupancy: 30% ... (we can ask Pete for his approx occupancy stats)
  • 365 days x €30 x 0.3 / 12 months = €274/month/container
  • We would offer longer-term discounts to people wanting to stay for a month.
    e.g: €400/month including weekly cleaning.
• Monthly mortgage on a €360k loan (we know this because of Braga...): 1000/month.
• Monthly revenue (estimate): €1,096 (nothing to "write home" about, but "break even")

Obviously this is just "MVP" calculations.
But it's illustrative that it's possible to reach a "break even" and test the idea.
We could pitch it to DR as the "development site" for his eventual container home project in the LX dock.
Longer term we would probably have 20 containers on the site separated by "enough" land to ensure privacy. If we assume €25k/container that's €500k incremental investment.
20 x €274 = €5,480/month revenue. or ~€60k annual. 60/500 = 12% ("cash-on-cash") ROI.
How many people do you know who would say "no" to that kind of annualised return?

@iteles thoughts? (could this be a good use of Saturday morning to prepare a pitch...?) 😉

It's 2.5h from LX airport: https://goo.gl/maps/4gPFCFeAoRQ2

This might sound "far", but it's a lot cheaper for a family that lives in LX to drive 2.5h to an off-grid paradise than it would be for them to fly to any other holiday destination.
And there are plenty of people from other countries will gladly drive the distance if the "pay off" is the level of tranquility we are offering. From experience, the car rental for a week is €50 and petrol would be another €50. Add €90 for food for a total of €400/week ...
for luxury off-grid nature retreat this is pretty reasonable to most young professionals. 400/7 = €60/night.

Note I realise this is a "distraction" from our current work on https://github.com/dwyl/home
But the amount of time it would take to buy this land and get the first container purchased
would be the time it's going to take me to write the physical access control code and build all the furniture for Braga. That experience is going to allow me to furnish a container in around 2 weeks (using CAD/CNC to do all the "heavy lifting" for doing the interiors and paying professionals to do the cutting, window installation, plumbing, electrics and transportation)
I feel there is actually a "simbiosis" between Braga/home and an off-grid version.
All of the learning on water treatment, food growing and cleaning management is 100% transferrable. The software we are writing will be 100% re-usable
and many of the people who will be staying in Braga will also be keen in this idea.

Crucially this would be an amazing "Phase Two". 😍

[iteles]

I wanted to put this to one side in my mind until https://github.com/dwyl/home was done but it keeps popping up. So I went on a little search of other websites today (3 pomodoros invested, but really fun).

This piece of land may also be worth a look!

https://www.idealista.pt/en/imovel/29482901/

I called and it's definitely adjoining the lake, I've asked for more info. Sadly only available to view on Saturday mornings.

I've also called the land from the comment above to see if we can see it on our way back up North on Wednesday.

[nelsonic]

@iteles we could go and look at it next Saturday as an "outing" ...
That's a lot of land for comparatively low asking price!
I'm guessing it would require quite a lot of investment to make it useable ...? 🤔

[carolrmc]

So why can’t we go tomorrow? A great drive into the country!

…

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 16:29, Ines Teles Correia ***@***.***> wrote: I wanted to put this to one side in my mind until https://github.com/dwyl/home was done but it keeps popping up. So I went on a little search of other websites today (3 pomodoros invested, but really fun). This piece of land may also be worth a look! https://www.idealista.pt/en/imovel/29482901/ [image: image] <https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/4185328/54446596-33423700-473f-11e9-8409-a0323af2c886.png> I called and it's definitely adjoining the lake, I've asked for more info. Sadly only available to view on Saturday mornings. — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#25 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AXf5fg38OiVX_RnEvPWhyh-MW6KHORIpks5vW8pwgaJpZM4KwPK8> .

[nelsonic]

@carolrmc I believe it might be "short notice" to book for tomorrow ... 💭

[iteles]

I'm not sure on the money required for it to be useable, there isn't much information available!
They're calling the owner to see if it would be possible for us to go see it, thought it probably is a bit too short notice unfortunately 🤞

[iteles]

They can do it! But only at 15h30. 😞
What do you folks think @carolrmc @nelsonic ?

[carolrmc]

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

…

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 17:36, Ines Teles Correia ***@***.***> wrote: They can do it! But only at 15h30. 😞 What do you folks think @carolrmc <https://github.com/carolrmc> @nelsonic <https://github.com/nelsonic> ? — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#25 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AXf5fls1T99Uwx95y0bBqPAcHX8TmAzKks5vW9obgaJpZM4KwPK8> .

[nelsonic]

Requested info on this one: https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/ftr260-riverside-property/

It's a 40 min drive from @home but is slightly more than I want to be paying ... 💭

[iteles]

I would suggest we view the Vieira do Minho por before making an offer.

[nelsonic]

@iteles obvs. not going to make an offer sight-unseen. but will drive out there to see it immediately if they have a time slot.

[nelsonic]

Viewing booked for 16:00 today:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EAhFhpCWipCNogSt6

[nelsonic]

It’s a 38 minute drive from home according to Google Maps:

So I’m going to leave 15:20 to be there on-time.
@iteles are you up for it? Or would you prefer to stay and I will report back? 💭

[nelsonic]

Yesterday we went to see the land; it was bordering the N103 main road between Braga and Chaves:

The noise was a deal-breaker for us.

[nelsonic]

Asking about this one: https://www.idealista.pt/imovel/31880801/ (private seller)

[nelsonic]

Side-quest: #114

[nelsonic]

Sent question about non-permanent structures: #114 (comment)

Meanwhile this looks good: https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/bpf150-o-jardim/

Land Size: 26,000m2 / 2.6ha isn't a huge amount.
But the fact that it has Mondego River frontage is a plus:

[iteles]

The property itself looks good but it is kind of in the middle of nowhere.

https://goo.gl/maps/rrqXwygwksqLiGpF8

[nelsonic]

Yeah, also checked the map after I'd posted it. sorry. yeah, too far. 👎

[nelsonic]

https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/imo295-douro-river-farm/

2 ruins with a total building area of 830m2 (250m2, 500m2 & 80m2)
and an urban article of land which could be built on.
The urban article has 1.8ha, where construction is allowed. 🏡

There are a decent number of terraces (flat areas)

Location is good; equidistant from Braga and Porto: ~40min drive.
https://goo.gl/maps/N9XW8UVCT5wLhVgK7

https://goo.gl/maps/UVerW6GmE881nXXYA

I'm particularly keen on the fact that:
a) it has two separate ruins to rebuild (we can do it in two phases)
b) 500m2 is a decent size for either a guest house or a retirement home
c) the 1.8ha urban article would allow for another ~400m2 which would again be enough for a decent Montessori retirement house.

I know €230k is quite a lot but it feels like a good deal when all the factors are considered. 💭

@iteles do you want to ask about going to see this land either on our way up or as a dedicated trip this week?

[nelsonic]

Marco de Canaveses, Porto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_de_Canaveses is a fairly typical small city.
the salient points are that it is at decent altitude so the air is fresh.
The PT wiki article has a lot more detail: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_de_Canaveses

It's at the end of the urban train line so is reachable by public transport from Porto:
https://www.cp.pt/StaticFiles/timetables/oporto-marco-urban-trains.pdf

[nelsonic]

Very near to this land is: https://bouca-agroturismo.com/en/houses-en/

and Douro Royal Valley Hotel & Spa: https://www.douroroyal.com/en/ ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 💰

[nelsonic]

@iteles when do you want to arrange to go visit the land? The estate agent seems responsive:

I'm reasonably "free" most days this week. Wednesday or Thursday would be best for me. 📆
Thursday 1^st September we might be able to drag @LuchoTurtle along with us and discuss the idea/plan with him. 💭

[iteles]

Thursday I need to do my glucose test and that messes up by body for the rest of the day (or it did last time). I would prefer Wednesday or Friday.

[nelsonic]

OK, I've sent an email asking for a Wednesday 31^st August viewing. 📆 🤞

[nelsonic]

@iteles the agents have replied with a proposed visit time of 15:00 Tomorrow (Wendesday 31^st August):

Are you available? Can I confirm our attendance?

What do you think of asking them to visit this one too while we're in the area?
https://www.imohouse.pt/imovel/quinta-com-frente-de-rio-cinfaes/14965499

It has 150m of river front, 2.3 hectares, with terraced farm land and 5 ruins to rebuild.

Working "horta" (allotment)

Land is prepared but not finished:

[iteles]

Sounds good. I don't know what y you organized with Luis with regards to Boamense.

Remember we have to be back here at 17h00 to relieve Stephany so I don't know if this is quite late? Earlier in the day or Friday would be better if they can't do earlier tomorrow.

[nelsonic]

@iteles at present we haven't decided anything with @LuchoTurtle regarding going to Boamense.
As noted in dwyl/studio#40 (comment) we don't all have to go tomorrow.
But we're not going to axsk Lucho to drive to Braga and take the gear ... ⏳

The place we are going is T1h from Boamense: https://goo.gl/maps/8V6cM6SbjMxp68Rm8

It's a similar journey time from Braga:

BTW: v. near to the land we're viewing are several "superb" rated guest houses

"Pedacinho do Mundo Douro": https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/pedacinho-de-mundo.en-gb.html

A country guest house with river views but no direct access with the following description on booking.com:

Boasting a swimming pool, a shared lounge, a garden and views of the pool, Pedacinho de Mundo Douro is situated in Passinhos de Cima and features accommodation with free WiFi.

Featuring a kitchen with a microwave and a fridge, each unit also comes with a satellite TV, ironing facilities, wardrobe and a seating area with a sofa. There is a private bathroom with shower in some units, along with bathrobes, a hairdryer and free toiletries.

Guests at the country house can enjoy a continental or a buffet breakfast.

A terrace is available for guests at Pedacinho de Mundo Douro to use.

Douro Museum is 45 km from the accommodation, while Our Lady of Remedies Sanctuary is 46 km from the property. The nearest airport is Francisco Sá Carneiro Airport, 74 km from Pedacinho de Mundo Douro.

Couples particularly like the location — they rated it 9.5 for a two-person trip.

Pedacinho de Mundo Douro has been welcoming Booking.com guests since 7 May 2015.

https://goo.gl/maps/irXyfVNin8SXb7t47

Quinta da Bouça - Agroturismo
https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/quinta-da-bouca-agroturismo.en-gb.html

Again, river view, no direct access:

Casa dos Becos: https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/casa-dos-becos.en-gb.html

The fact that this area has a few highly rated guest houses already is a very good sign.
Several reviews from international travelers all raving. Not cheap either.

Anyway, visit booked for tomorrow. 👍

[nelsonic]

The first plot of land we viewed today had more total area #25 (comment) but ...
a) it was steep and very overgrown
b) didn't have access to abundant water #21 (just a stream) and
c) the train passes quite close by which we thought would be good for public transport access ...
but it passed by twice while we were viewing the land and made quite a lot of noise in the valley. 🤦‍♂️

It still had a river view but no access and was going to require significant investment to clear and maintain it.
The second property we viewed was: #116 🤯