Render amenity=childcare like amenity=kindergarten

[kocio-pl]

I think we should render amenity=childcare like amenity=kindergarten. Example of childcare facility next to kindergarten:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/441065845#map=19/52.20920/20.97235

More precisely it means:
a) name rendering
b) background rendering

Tag amenity=childcare is getting close to 10k uses and the numbers are steadily rising:

[imagico]

amenity=kindergarten is the established tag for the full range of preschool facilities and the wiki page for amenity=childcare does not provide a distinguishing definition allowing mappers an informed decision which tag to use so i don't think we should support this by rendering it as a synonym.

Note there are also two contradicting proposals for amenity=childcare:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0

[kocio-pl]

One of this proposals is "rejected" and second one has status "abandoned" and both are older than growing popularity of this one, so I don't think they are really the alternative, rather previous takes on subject.

As far as I know child care is not about education, so not really a preschool. It may make child care closer to social facility (like suggested in first proposal) and it may also make sense to render it like we do with other social facilities.

[imagico]

With full range of preschool facilities i meant any facility that deals with children at ages prior to going to school. I mentioned the proposals to show there is a large bandwidth of interpretations of the tag.

As said i don't think we should at the moment render this because the tag is not well separated from amenity=kindergarten and any meaning it is used in overlaps with the established use of that tag. If in the future some differentiated tagging of young children facilities is established with well defined meaning - either as supplemental tags like min_age/max_age, nursery=yes etc. or with separate tags - we could consider rendering this, ideally in a differentiated way, but we should not push a badly defined tag just because of widespread use - which is because others, i.e. iD developers, have made the decision to push it - those who fail to learn history (the wood/forest disaster) are doomed to repeat it.

[polarbearing]

Fully agree with @imagico here.
While it needs to be investigated which facilities =childcare is being used for, I imagine it might be lots of small places like "day mothers" (DE: Tagesmütter) who care for a small number of kids in their own home. Thus I definitely against treating them like social_facility as you get an inflation of icons for insignificant features.

[kocio-pl]

Thanks for the feedback.

It looks to me like childcare tagging is more general than kindergarten (afterschool child care is great example of this - it's not "preschool" in any way, for sure), but it's better to discuss it on Tagging list first and make both wiki definitions more clear, if possible.

Forest is the same kind of problem - specific case is so popular that it's tempting to forget about any other tree clusters, which are not a forest in any way. And there's even no clear definition what forest really is ("area covered by trees" is much too wide). I'm happy with how we deal with rendering it - if we're not sure what's the difference, we render them the same. It's not rendering department which failed to learn the history - kindergarten failure is here already (maybe as old as the forest failure or footway/path failure) and the problem is deeper than tagging, it's rather blurred real life classification. I'd like not to ignore real life problems while rendering.

As of day mothers (or other child care facilities being too small or insignificant) - if we render it like kindergarten, the problem does not bite us: we would render only name and area, but they probably don't have a name nor use a special space around, am I right? It's safer rendering choice than social facilities for me and that's why I prefer it.

[polarbearing]

if we render it like kindergarten, the problem does not bite us

On the other hand, I'd like to see icons for school and kindergarten #120 eventually, and then the problem falls on our feet.

[kocio-pl]

I don't believe it'll be any time soon and that's why I've dropped my own PR resolving it. In this case the icons were not the problem, but it turned out that we don't have idea how to approach scaling issues - see: #2361 (comment).

But even if we start using icon for kindergarten, we can still render childcare without the icon by our choice. Currently we're still waiting for database reload, but after that we could do it also with tagging child care (or some subtypes of it) as social facility.

In a matter of fact I think rendering at least name would be good for many generic amenities we currently don't render at all.

[kocio-pl]

Closing now, I plan to reopen it after discussing it on Tagging list.

[techlady]

Hello all,
I just got involved in trying to put amenity=childcare on the Map Features page. I don't know how it may work in other countries, but in the U.S. "kindergartens" are not for child care. They are the first grade of school. Also, child care is offed for many age groups, not just primary school children. In fact, there are programs for almost any age group where children are too young to be alone after school hours. Further, child care is offered by a wide range of institutions from schools to churches to community centers to private homes (often with a license). So, it's best to be as generic as possible for "childcare."
In that vein, I bought some nonattribution icons (cheaply) that could fill the bill, but I certainly want your reactions. I have attached them to this comment. Thanks!

[HolgerJeromin]

Sorry, but large icons have no value here. We use extrem small icons (14x14 pixel²).

[polarbearing]

in the U.S. "kindergartens" are not for child care. They are the first grade of school

That sounds confusing, first grade is first grade, and kindergartens do care for children. According to wikipedia/K-12 the K stands for the age group of 4-6 yo, thus 3 years or preschool education, followed by the first grade.

The problem with the amenity=childcare tag is its spontaneous use with poor definition.

[techlady]

OK. I can convert them using GIMP. Other than that, what do you think of the images? And, are .PNGs ok? Thanks. Charlotte At 12:11 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

Sorry, but large icons have no value here. We use extrem small icons (14x14 pixel²). ­ You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdvQM9X20gIkrcixnGVxUCtr-W5aGks5sf5c8gaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[kocio-pl]

Unfortunately no, because Gimp works with raster images, but vector images can be created using Inkscape. Here are our icon creating guidelines:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines

[techlady]

Actually, in the US, kindergartens do not provide child care unless they have a special program to do so. In the US "kindergarten" means a kind of starter school. Children typically go for a half day, starting at age 5. The next year, first grade, they begin to attend school for a full day. Most children in the US also go to a "preschool," which usually begins at age 3. There is some teaching, but mostly it is for socialization, such as playing games, making art works, etc. At all these levels, child care is usually a separate program, even if it is provided at the same facility. Most schools provide education only. Child care is extra. I don't know how it is in other countries, but this is the pattern throughout the US. Charlotte At 04:15 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

in the U.S. "kindergartens" are not for child care. They are the first grade of school That sounds confusing, first grade is first grade, and kindergartens do care for children. According to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%9312>wikipedia/K-12 the K stands for the age group of 4-6 yo, thus 3 years or preschool education, followed by the first grade. The problem with the amenity=childcare tag is its spontaneous use with poor definition. ­ You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdn2qc5BUMi0B21Nu_eU_U7VtCYq1ks5sf9BOgaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[dieterdreist]

2017-09-07 18:33 GMT+02:00 Charlotte Wolter <notifications@github.com>:

Child care is extra.

While I truly believe this is an interesting conversation, we should have it elsewhere, for example on the tagging mailing list, because this github project is dedicated to work on the rendering style. As a non-native speaker I wasn't aware the word "child care" had a specific meaning different than just "taking care of children" in some way or the other.

[techlady]

Well, when I started to work on this, I was just planning to add the tag to the Map Features page, where I saw only .png images in the template. However, the icon provider does have SVGs also. Is that what I should download? Beside the format issues, what do you think of the images? Which one do you think is most appropriate? Charlotte At 09:28 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

Unfortunately no, because Gimp works with raster images, but vector images can be created using Inkscape. Here are our icon creating guidelines: <https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines ­ You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdpaFO7nrW5RPWcI89_GqQ4xMQ0Uyks5sgBnCgaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[techlady]

Actually, I could have downloaded SVG images also. I t saw that there were .png images in the "Map Features" page. O At 09:28 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

Unfortunately no, because Gimp works with raster images, but vector images can be created using Inkscape. Here are our icon creating guidelines: <https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines ­ You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdpaFO7nrW5RPWcI89_GqQ4xMQ0Uyks5sgBnCgaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[kocio-pl]

So please download SVG version and rescale it to 14x14 canvas, following the rest of our icon rules.

[dieterdreist]

Beside the format issues, what do you think of the

images? Which one do you think is most appropriate?

I like the third one, but we'll have to see how they work in 14px size

[polarbearing]

If those icons are downloaded somewhere, the copyright issue has to checked. Where are they from, and what license do they have?
As @dieterdreist pointed out, the tagging issues need to be discussed elsewhere, however it appears to me that even in different US states the terminology might differ, hence the contradiction between @techlady's and wikipedia's definition of K-12.

[techlady]

Kocio, Thanks!! Inkscape is too cool. I can use it for other projects where I have been stymied on making SVGs (I'm not a GIS professional but I make maps for fun). I will study the icon guidelines, and, hopefully, I can convert these to OSM requirements. I'll get back to you. Charlotte At 09:28 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

Unfortunately no, because Gimp works with raster images, but vector images can be created using Inkscape. Here are our icon creating guidelines: <https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines ­ You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdpaFO7nrW5RPWcI89_GqQ4xMQ0Uyks5sgBnCgaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[techlady]

Ok, Dieter, sorry. But I now have Inkscape installed and will be working on the icons to make them fit OSM requirements.

--C At 09:39 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

2017-09-07 18:33 GMT+02:00 Charlotte Wolter ***@***.***>: > Child care is extra. While I truly believe this is an interesting conversation, we should have it elsewhere, for example on the tagging mailing list, because this github project is dedicated to work on the rendering style. As a non-native speaker I wasn't aware the word "child care" had a specific meaning different than just "taking care of children" in some way or the other. ­ You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdnPMK0Cwk4NvOoGKM8pcwOeVOYtJks5sgBw1gaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[techlady]

I willl check with Iconfinder.com for their specific requirements and whether they OSM license and copyright is OK with them. Charlotte At 10:06 AM 9/7/2017, you wrote:

If those icons are downloaded somewhere, the copyright issue has to checked. Where are they from, and what license do they have? As ***@***.*** pointed out, the tagging issues need to be discussed elsewhere, however it appears to me that even in different US states the terminology might differ, hence the contradiction between ***@***.***'s and wikipedia's definition of K-12. ­ You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdgjczdQ8qmWCnJmT3NI0Gz4Cc-AUks5sgCKLgaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady

[pnorman]

I willl check with Iconfinder.com for their specific
requirements and whether they OSM license and copyright
is OK with them.

This project isn't OSM and the license of it is CC0. I checked their site, and they have a license with lots of restrictions, so their icons are not usable for us. I'm also doubtful they would work at 14px, and if they did, they would need a lot editing to make them work.

I just got involved in trying to put amenity=childcare on the Map Features page.

This is the issue tracker for osm-carto, the map style. The map feature page is part of the wiki, and not controlled by us.

---

Most of the discussion on this issue recently doesn't help resolve it. We don't need an icon to render amenity=childcare like amenity=kindergarten, since we already render the latter. The reason the issue was closed was the tagging is a mess, and I don't see any discussion here that shows that that's changed.

[techlady]

Paul, I had already corresponded with Inconfinder.com and was aware that OSM cannot use their icons. I will coninue to research icons for this tag. Charlottr At 06:38 PM 9/8/2017, you wrote:

I willl check with Iconfinder.com for their specific requirements and whether they OSM license and copyright is OK with them. This project isn't OSM and the license of it is CC0. I checked their site, and they have a license with lots of restrictions, so their icons are not usable for us. I'm also doubtful they would work at 14px, and if they did, they would need a lot editing to make them work. I just got involved in trying to put amenity=childcare on the Map Features page. This is the issue tracker for osm-carto, the map style. The map feature page is part of the wiki, and not controlled by us. ---------- Most of the discussion on this issue recently doesn't help resolve it. We don't need an icon to render amenity=childcare like amenity=kindergarten, since we already render the latter. The reason the issue was closed was the tagging is a mess, and I don't see any discussion here that shows that that's changed. ­ You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, <#2657 (comment)>view it on GitHub, or <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACWrdtUSHW7aUqvBktIQA3KOGq-HdoVdks5sgewqgaJpZM4N5FmG>mute the thread.

Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techlady@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady