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HIP-58 Poc distance limit incrase to 200 km #389
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Why? |
There are 9 nearest hotspot in my city. And by the seaside there is a city about 130-150 km. My hotspots will witness them mostly but all invalid. And there is no beacon in the nearest hotspots. Cheaters starts at 200 km. 100 km is too low. And the other hand, why are they invalid. İ think it wouldnt be enter the beacon. İt wont be witnessed. Sorry about my bad english |
Your hotspot being too far away is not a reason. You are too far away from sensors, so why would you be paid for not covering them? 100km is double what sensors can send. Your English is fine. :) |
How can i stop the witness with far hotspots. İt can make it with stock antenna on 130 km. My and nearest hotspots cant witness eachother. Just send beacon to far away hotspots and witness with them. All invalid. There are to many state distance between them 150 km and too many hotspot owners want to carry hotspots to the city center. İn will affect the transmit scales. İ cant understand who won something with hip58 |
Thats the reason For example , i have 3 hotspots and in my state totally 9 hotspots. On the other hand there is a city, it’s 140 km far away and there are too many hotspots in there. In my cities hotspots sends beacon to other city mostly , and our hotspots witnesses other cities hotspots. So too many transaction are invalid. And i see in your denylist chart, cheaters witness distance is starts at 200 km mostly. So its clear between 100 km and 200 km. Hip-58 has decreased our earnings and loss of trust to helium mining. We agree to fight with cheaters but this update affect innocent people and its not fair. İ cant stop the witness with far away hotspots. İt doesnt work just nearest hotspots. Please think about this. Best regards |
One example of a lost income from HIP58 is not a reason to change it. |
There are too many examples but just i write here |
100 km is too little. I support setting a limit of 200 km. There are many examples, even with a 1.8dBi antenna, sometimes if it is high it goes 100 km. |
I agree 100km is too close, but 200km could easily be too far. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. 125km is a reasonable extension. Why? -There still needs to be incentive to perfect hotspot placement I recommend possibly modifying the language of this proposal to suggest 125km as the new PoC distance limit, and adding a lot more "why" than less valid witnesses. |
I see other hotspots and they try to witness +150 km. But they dont try 5-10 km hotspots. I think something changed about algorithm. I wrote reasons which i catch. Maybe some other people add them. I talk to many people in some community chat groups and they mostly tell about invalid witnesses. Authorities will choose the correct distance i think. But this issue must think again on it. |
I do support a more realistic limit of 200km ,HIP-58 has no technical reasoning its a poorly designed blanket one size fits all.
3)different frequencies used by different regions - they attenuate differently
and further incorrectly claiming on the actual HIP-58 vote information: It may better serve the community to actually have on the vote page a Pro and Con information section by different authors on the HIP being voted on and not skewed in order of presentation etc. |
Thank you for your research and information. This article will accept from the authorities as strong reasons. Thank you again |
HIP 58 shouldve come under in: hip-49-lorawan-subregion-max-eirp HIP-49 should eventually control not just the region max EIRP but the max witness distance, heres why:
this will leave max PoC distance a variable defined as: max distance your signal travels at your local frequency at max allowed transmit level , which just makes sense. HIP58 should've never been a separate HIP, essentially is overriding functions of HIP-49 that will give us our limits ,thats why we need HIP-59 to Pass then we can work on it being implemented into HIP-49. on a semi-related issue ,the custom antenna selecting when asserting is far too limited |
Based on the pre-HIP 58 state of the network (see this figure in the HIP):
I think we are all happy to see a sanity check on the valid witness distances - it will be nice to no longer see absurd beacon activity on explorer. A 100km limit reduces the false positive rate to the order of statistical noise (3-4 standard deviations), which seems like a reasonable goal on a network this size, but I would be interested to see the data-driven interpretations for other limits. Whether the proposed change is for 125, 150, 200km, etc., it is difficult to evaluate the argument based on anecdotes and singular examples. Consider the following questions in your analysis:
|
Hello |
thats another interesting point you mentioned is channel noise, we have duplex here , not simplex and even a regional diffrence such as that, or the channel bandwith and transmit time , or the absence of duty cycle is going to make a big difference. and to answer your question i already defined the Max PoC distance simply as : that should answer any of your distance related question if you input your local values into a FSPL calculator, (id like to get away from we need a fixed X value , it should be be determined by whats allowed in your region to maximise performance and coverage). the false postive rate wont change as the gamers as they do have changed inside 100km, this change is to stop the damage done to actual users like the post above, changing it to 200km will have zero net affect on gamers, only on legitimate setups. I dont think legitimate users are happy about a sanity check that didnt undergo a sanity check before being implemented. |
I absolutely agree with you. I have an average of 120 whitness per day and 60-70 are 100 kilometers away. Especially since I've already tried so hard to put it in this position. Now, with the new update, my position, which was an advantage in the past, has now become a disadvantage. They have to do it at least 150 or 200 kilometers or I will sell and boycott all the coins I have. I'm sorry for my bad english |
We have invested time and money in equipment to cover those areas where are no hotspots, I have few hotspots at 100-150km from nearest city and they are helping the network, they cover areas with agricultural land and forest and I see no reason why I should loose witnesses as they are at 110-150km away. This was not stated in the rules before and because those people who don't care and don't know how to make a good setup voted for 100km I think the rule should be reviewed and increased. Those who are gaming the system should be stopped in other ways not limiting the witness distance. probably will be better if you set income limit to max 2hnt/day/hotspot as not many are earning more and the network will not be that badly affected by gamers. |
Karadeniz bölgesi çok dağlık etkin nokta lar çok uzak ta kalıyor 100 km den sonra için gerekli izinler i alanlar a açılmalı .200 km ideal 👍 |
Hello, In my opinion there must also be a greater distance then 100KM ! It's not right that sensors don't hear over 100 KM as there are sensors that hear easy over 100 KM as mentioned above here already ! I can follow the thing to fight against cheaters but in my opinion too many good an normal users are affected in this and it should be modified to at least 150 km but i prefer 200KM Don't forget helium encourgaged people to build great setups and think on those in small rural environments that have build a setup and depends on the further away hotspots to witness. I think in this phase of the network building it's not good to already limit the distance. So please consider it to bring it to at least 150 a 200 km ! as this is a real joke now and too many good users are affected. There are enough people with knowledge that can confirm it's way easy for some sensors to hear more then 100 KM please consider this to modify the distance. i can agree modifications are needed and normal in building an network but last months it's seems a big joke with the constantly changing stuff and me and a lot of people start losing trust and faith in the helium. We need to admit that in this phase of the project it's about getting HNT and witnesses too, offcourse later on it will change and it's based on data but that's future ! thanks for consider it and maybe let's find a middle way and put it to 150 KM if 200 is too much or you think cheaters will take more advantage. In my opinion it's also not the way to fight against cheaters but this is another discussion ! thx & grtz stinkende gilbert |
It should definitely be increased to 200 km. Most of the cheaters affect the ones after 200 km. |
yes I have the same problem, I connect to the opposite city of the sea, but there are too many invalid witnesses, my position is good, I am not cheating :( |
Reducing the maximum distance for the witness is not the solution to the problem, it is just putting a small patch on the problem of cheating. |
I support increasing the limit, ie 125km, or 150 km max. In rural areas, this limit creates issues in reaching crowded hotspots. At least 100 km and beyond are not counted in 14 witnesses when the broadcast beacon is made. |
2 things
So to get this listened to you need to provide evidence of good scenarios working at the 100km range so PoC could be doubled. And then I might vote for it. |
Saying you provide coverage over lots of agricultural land or forest does not mean you could pick up ground based sensors there. Would anyone invest 10,00s in sensors if the only hotspots that could pick them up were 100-200km away. No. They would place local offgrid based hotspots. This is exactly what my company does. Not only our miners provide coverage for sensors used by farmers mainly but they could also witness Farther than 100km due to their location...now all this witnessing is not valid anymore. Clients are unhappy. Few of them already decided not to expand further...sadly |
Why are there 12 or 15 dbi antennas, we pay money to buy an antenna, there is no cheating, the system should find the cheaters, there is no 100 km limit, and non-criminals also suffer. |
Because Helium is not the only user of 433/868/915/923 MHz |
There are for sure sensors that can go over 100 KM, many of you forget that Lora was LongFi before Also it's not fair that now in some cases from the 14 'seeing' 8 are invaldi due this new distance limit. Means they been chosen for the 'lottery' but are invalid and don't count and take the tickets of others. As mentioned above in more rural areas it's a big lose.... I can agree in crowded places and city's 100 KM should be enough but not all live and deploy in world cities or crowded area's please consider a higher distance like 150 KM ... thanks ! |
agree , but this will cost more clients / customers then already existing system with no distance limit I was plan to bring some new sensor on market too but with a limit of 100 KM i feel i'm bring down the quality i want setup and give with this .... |
agreed. I don’t under stand folks argument for ShoRaWan, there are a lot of folks disregarding the Lo. While a lot of good ‘why’ is being provided for the case of a 25-50km increase, not seeing any homework being provided in why a 25-50km increase would be so beneficial to spoofers that we shouldn’t even consider it. What if the folks firm on 100km are sour their furthest witness is in their neighboring res 8, and that they’ve got a “more-pie-for-me” mentality because rather than suffering from HIP 58, there is more pie being left at the table. And when folks like me are renting tower space to make sure we’re providing the best possible coverage to the network, I think it’s important to continue to reward good hotspot placement for a network bootstrapped by incentive. At least not punish it. incrase to 125km plz |
This thread is full of anecdotes and no actual analysis that's in line with this suggestion.
Instead I'm seeing a "but my antenna setup optimizes for longer PoC activity" conversation. If you have an actual HIP that you can write, please do and include actual data. The good thing is that the implementation of the distance limit today has kept all the data on chain so you can actually include that data in your HIP. |
So I have a challenge for this assumption "renting tower space to make sure we’re providing the best possible coverage to the network". Doing this IS creating best possible PoC coverage but I'm not convinced it's the best coverage for the network, which is about Sensors. Do I believe sensors can go over 100km?. Yes. (Stick a hotspot 700m high and you can get Line of Sight sure) But other than people saying they can there is no evidence or examples so far shown so far of implementations. |
I 100% agree this is absolutely not a HIP, and just a thread of conjecture. I apologize for adding to the opinion pool with no data, I realize the conversation is based on PoC not network use. I was naive in assuming the sensors would have nearly the range on average that hotspots cover, realizing now that’s a massive area. The tower isn’t tall, but it’s on a hill. It sends data 24/7, but certainly at the rate of PoC. I’m willing to evolve and lower the antenna, and forego the tower rental all together if it means more nodes being able to communicate with my hotspot. I’m not desperate for HNT, I really enjoy the hardware/geek factor and love Helium as an ecosystem. I simply wanted to provide my personal experience that I myself use sensors on the helium network with aftermarket antennas that could have to communicate over 25km to receive the data in the downlinks I send it. It’s not impossible is all I really should have said. Thanks for your feedback folks, I apologize again for the utter absence of numbers in here. Power to the People’s Network 🎈 |
İs anybody can say how to notify the issue to the authorities? |
@Bcagatay53 thanks for your submission. This repository is for HIP documents and is not a general discussion forum. Please see below for how to submit. I'd be happy to have you speak on this topic at this week's community call if you are interested – noon ET on Weds https://dewi.org/community-call – please let me know here or on Discord If you'd like to continue with this, please write and submit a proposal. You should follow the format and process prescribed in HIP7, Process for managing Helium Improvement Proposals I've also written a rough guide to doing this using the github.com web interface: https://jamiedubs.com/blog/how-to-submit-helium-manufacturer-application/ |
Now, in summer 2023 there are many hotspots offline because of low earnings. We need a longer range to 150 or 200 km to optimize and enhance the network and get more PoC. It is really sad to see so many " Max distance exceeded“ in the logs… Please change / fix it. Thanks in advance. |
There is no point in giving POC rewards to hotspots that are too far away to pass data from sensors. |
|
The issue is dead and the community voted. Move on. |
I think we all know why many hotspots are offline and stopped 'believe' in
this project
Almost no real ussage or not enough in the time we are
denylist that hits a lot of innocent people and after months still not
being reviewed or removed
since the move to solana another drop in rewards / earnings for miners /
Hotspot owners
and we can keep continue ...
it was a nice ride for those who where in early and the money has been made
by the early investors who had the balls to sell ar +- 50 usd
you see this enough in the markets ... altough we are in a bear market as
we know when other coins or let us say most coins pump HNT don't do that
much anymore. the coin is not bought like before either and the money came
from the mass deployment of hotspots on a short time
you can keep tell a lot of stuff but you need to face some things as they
are :)
it's been a joke longer then today
goodluck all and think twice next time a nice project with good story come
across ;)
cheers
Op vr 9 jun 2023 om 20:12 schreef capjbadger007 ***@***.***>:
… Now, in summer 2023 there are many hotspots offline because of low
earnings. We need a longer range to 150 or 200 km to optimize and enhance
the network and get more PoC. It is really sad to see so many " Max
distance exceeded“ in the logs… Please change / fix it. Thanks in advance.
There is no point in giving POC rewards to hotspots that are too far away
to pass data from sensors.
1. The max range of LoRaWAN is approx. 700 km
2. You didn’t understand why the network has so much offline hotspots
now
3. Read and understand post —> HIP-58 Poc distance limit incrase to
200 km #389 (comment)
<#389 (comment)>
1. Sensors don't transmit that far.
2. You have shown no proof of why there are offline hotspots.
3. You are once again assuming sensors broadcast the same as hotpots.
The issue is dead and the community voted. Move on.
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Wrong, my hotspot witnessed up2 350 km, but … " Max distance exceeded“ [ ] You have understand why private persons installed helium hotspots for hundred of euros. EOT |
You witnessed a hotspot. No sensor is going to transmit that far. |
Change the distance limit to 200
For example , i have 3 hotspots and in my state totally 9 hotspots. On the other hand there is a city, it’s 140 km far away and there are too many hotspots in there. In my cities hotspots sends beacon to other city mostly , and our hotspots witnesses other cities hotspots. So too many transaction are invalid. And i see in your denylist chart, cheaters witness distance is starts at 200 km mostly. So its clear between 100 km and 200 km. Hip-58 has decreased our earnings and loss of trust to helium mining. We agree to fight with cheaters but this update affect innocent people and its not fair. İ cant stop the witness with far away hotspots. İt doesnt work just nearest hotspots. Please think about this. Best regards
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