The future of KataGo on macOS

Hello,

OpenCL is deprecated in macOS 10.15, and it will probably be removed in the near future.

Are there plans to create a CoreML backend? That is, does KataGo have a future on macOS?

I'm asking because I'm considering buying a MacBook (have not decided on the model), and it should last a few years.

As far as I know the iOS app "A Master of Go" uses a CoreML backend, so it should be possible, although I'm not sure whether CoreML can be used with C++.

Thank you.

[isty2e]

This leaves another question: Will @y-ich eventually release a mac version of the app?

[lightvector]

Maybe KataGo can support it in the future. But I can't guarantee that I'll spend all the effort to write yet another GPU backend. It's an enormous amount of work to invest for me. It's sad to see Apple dropping support for an open standard that currently works pretty well across a wide range of devices. From my perspective, all it does it create yet another burden with no benefit.

[y-ich]

In fact, KataGo on Core ML works well on macOS.
I may release "A Master of Go" on macOS when Apple stops providing OpenCL.
The prototype app is just compiled as Catalyst. No mouse-over support.
Currently Lizzie with KataGo is more useful than it.

[isty2e]

@y-ich Asking just out of curiosity, what about the performance? Is the CoreML version faster than OpenCL one?

@y-ich That is good to hear! But I agree that KataGo with a GTP interface is more useful because it can run under Lizzie or Sabaki.

@lightvector It's unfortunate that Apple is removing support for standards and doing its own thing, but unfortunately that's how it is. Without a CoreML backend both KataGo nor Leela Zero will be completely unusable on macOS in the near future. I want to help but am neither proficient with C++ nor with CoreML…

[y-ich]

@isty2e san,

Maybe my Mac (Late 2012) is too old to talk about reference performance, but I think that basically optimized OpenCL is much faster than Core ML.
7 nnBatches/s by OpenCL KataGo, 3 evaluations per sec. by CoreML KataGo, on my Mac.

[l1t1]

did someone test go engine on the vmware or subsystem, such as ubuntu of windows 10?

[lightvector]

(deleted a comment that was a duplicate of a comment posted in another issue and is off-topic for this issue).

[dappstore123]

@y-ich is coreml backend opensource ？
https://github.com/y-ich/KataGo/blob/browser/cpp/neuralnet/tfjsbackend.cpp

[y-ich]

@dappstore123 san,

No, not yet.

[PJTraill]

Is there any chance that someone could create a generic OpenCL wrapper for CoreML, with at least sufficient functionality for KataGo? (This may well reveal how little I know about macOS, OpenCL & CoreML, but it is the first thing that occurs to me as a retired developer.)

The M1 processor of Apple's new MacBooks includes a Neural Engine, which should be very capable of running KataGo using Core ML.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with either C++ or neural networks but if there's anything I can do to help… Thank you.

[lian9998]

at least katago has a cpu backend. I belive apple will not remove c++ support in near future.