MSC3026: "busy" presence state #3026

babolivier · 2021-02-23T17:57:06Z

Synapse implementation: matrix-org/synapse#9644
Element Android implementation: element-hq/element-android#6047
Element Web implementation: matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk#8043

FCP proposal: #3026 (comment)

dbkr

Presence right now is fairly basic, and it's also unclear how it might interact with user profiles, ie. if some of it might move there (the status_msg in particular?) but it certainly seems like the semantics of 'busy' being something that will be auto-set by clients lend it to being in the presence enum. However presence ends up evolving, I think it having a busy state included allows for clients to set it automatically and server to derive a sensible value from the various automatic updates from clients.

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

ShadowJonathan

I think the proposal as-is (on commit 69c273c) will break the presence system as it works today, I think we need a more expansive presence MSC that can incorporate "extra" presence (such as busy proposed here), instead of the "cumulative" presence we have today (that this proposal will not fit into, for multiple reasons).

Edit: This review is now outdated

ShadowJonathan

As per discussion in #matrix-spec, I've realised that this spec does indeed try to do (what i called) "cumulative" presence, with 2 important points i think should be clarified in this document;

the busy presence is more exclusively seen as a "active temporary" state, i.e. it is not seen as analogous to the generic "do not disturb" status we see in many apps today, but it is meant as a marker to presence-receiving users that the user is currently busy in specifically-engaging activities such as calls. Important note then; this presence should immidiately be dropped when the user is seen as not actively engaging (not in a call) or not present (then unavailable/"idle" should be broadcasted.
With the previous, the busy state is seen as "above" any online state, making it so that only one client has to broadcast it to have it be the defacto "user presence" then, this is similar to online with unavailable, and unavailable with offline.

I think clarifying these two things explicitly in this document (if they arent already) would make this MSC non-conflicting with how matrix works today, assuming that clients honor point 1.

turt2live

Ideally we'd rework the entire presence system so that things like unavailable make sense, but this is probably the best we can do for now.

anoadragon453

Generally looks fine, just a couple of points really.

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

…matrix-doc into babolivier/msc_presence_busy

anoadragon453

This lgtm on the whole!

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

@dklimpel

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chagai95 · 2022-07-08T14:21:49Z

We are testing this and it's working fine for us on productive systems, when will it be "merged"?

anoadragon453 · 2022-07-08T17:21:25Z

@turt2live was the needs-implementation label added due to a lack of an open-source client implementation?

anoadragon453

This still lgtm.

@mscbot fcp merge

anoadragon453 · 2022-07-19T15:52:25Z

@mscbot fcp merge

mscbot · 2022-07-19T15:52:27Z

This FCP proposal has been cancelled by #3026 (comment).

Team member @mscbot has proposed to merge this. The next step is review by the rest of the tagged people:

Once at least 75% of reviewers approve (and there are no outstanding concerns), this will enter its final comment period. If you spot a major issue that hasn't been raised at any point in this process, please speak up!

See this document for information about what commands tagged team members can give me.

uhoreg · 2022-07-19T21:44:18Z

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

+
+## Proposal
+
+A new presence state is added, `busy`, which describes a state where the user is


While I don't have an objection to adding busy in particular, this raises the larger question of what presence states we should have. Is it sufficient to just add busy, or do should we be adding more? For example, XMPP defines 6 states (4 states with names, plus a non-specific "online" state when the show element is not present, and a state where the client is offline.) Are we eventually going to want equivalents for XMPP's other states that we're missing? How do we decide where to draw the line?

FWIW, I think that adding a 4th busy state is probably OK. Adding much more than that would be of questionable value.

Yeah, this was basically my feeling too. How is busy different from unavailable? Should we use status messages instead?

uhoreg · 2022-07-19T21:50:50Z

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

+presence state to `unavailable`, which is the closest state to `busy`
+semantically.
+
+


The spec says that the server aggregates presence data across devices, which I assume means that, e.g. if a user has one device that's online and another that's offline, then the user is marked as online. How does busy fit into this? If a user has a device that's online, and one that's busy, what m.presence event should be sent to others? I think that my expectation would be that busy would take precedence over online.

I'm pretty sure it does in the current implementation. There seems to be one api end point for presence that was overlooked so we disabled it on our forks but when the online state comes through a sync it is ignored by synapse - matrix-org/synapse#12213

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

Co-authored-by: Hubert Chathi <hubertc@matrix.org>

babolivier · 2022-08-16T15:58:27Z

Thanks for the comments, I'll try to make some time to address them soon.

turt2live · 2022-09-01T20:55:59Z

After talking to the author, this isn't the author's current priority. It's hard to make progress on this from the SCT side in this state, so removing from FCP for now - we can always restart FCP when someone is able to pick this up :)

@mscbot fcp cancel

anoadragon453 · 2022-11-07T15:47:23Z

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

+implementations to not implement a timer that would trigger an update to the
+`unavailable` state (like most implementations do when the user is in the
+`online` state). This is because there are some valid use cases for the user not


Even though it's obvious, we may also want to explicitly state that homeservers shouldn't update a user's presence state to "online" if activity is detected.

turt2live · 2023-03-03T18:58:48Z

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

+For backwards compatibility, servers implementing this MSC must expose a flag in
+`/_matrix/client/versions` responses, under `unstable_features`, named
+`org.matrix.msc3026.busy_presence`, which is set to `true`. Before setting a
+user's presence to `busy`, clients must check the presence of this flag and that
+it's set to `true`. If it's not, clients should fall back to setting the user's
+presence state to `unavailable`, which is the closest state to `busy`
+semantically.


This sort of backwards compatibility would go in the unstable prefix section - clients (now) can use spec versions to detect support otherwise.

clokep · 2023-08-08T17:38:06Z

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

+If a user's presence is set to `busy`, it is strongly recommended for
+implementations to not implement a timer that would trigger an update to the
+`unavailable` state (like most implementations do when the user is in the
+`online` state). This is because there are some valid use cases for the user not
+triggering any event in the client but still being online and active, e.g. if
+they're on a call, and because such automation while taking the specific
+semantics of the `busy` state into account is complex when the user is using
+multiple devices.


Synapse (at least) also transitions users to offline in some situations (e.g. if the user stops syncing and enough time has passed). This still seems somewhat valid (e.g. if a device just disappears forever without transition off busy then you at some point want to transition the account to something else).

clokep · 2023-08-15T19:39:21Z

proposals/3026-presence-busy.md

+It is left to the implementation to decide how to update a user's presence to
+the `busy` state (and from this state to another); suggestions would include
+allowing the user to set it manually, setting it automatically when the user
+joins a call or a Jitsi group call, etc..


matrix-org/synapse#12213 asserts that only the /presence API can be used to set busy and that subsequent /sync calls after a user is set to busy should not revert a user to online automatically. I don't think this makes sense and it would be a lot clearer for a client to sync with set_presence=busy if it is still busy. This would give /sync?set_presence=? and /presence the same "power" and not different behavior.

I don't think this MSC could be merged without either documenting the Synapse implementation or a clarification of the MSC.

Yeah, I think this probably does make sense - my basic understanding of it was that the presence API is the 'user level' presence and the sync is the 'device level' presence, so previously the user is busy rather than a device, but this would just be switching to say that a device is busy (which perhaps makes more sense: the user is on a call on a specific device).

babolivier changed the title ~~MSCXXXX: "busy" presence state~~ MSC3026: "busy" presence state Feb 23, 2021

MSC3026: "busy" presence state

8fcecdc

babolivier force-pushed the babolivier/msc_presence_busy branch from d23c63f to 8fcecdc Compare February 23, 2021 17:57

anoadragon453 added kind:feature MSC for not-core and not-maintenance stuff proposal A matrix spec change proposal proposal-in-review labels Feb 23, 2021

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Mention MSC number in the unstable prefix

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Implement MSC3026: busy presence state matrix-org/synapse#9644

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turt2live added the needs-implementation This MSC does not have a qualifying implementation for the SCT to review. The MSC cannot enter FCP. label Jun 8, 2021

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ShadowJonathan mentioned this pull request Sep 24, 2021

Add the ability to show as “busy” with apple’s new Focus API element-hq/element-ios#4908

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mscbot added disposition-merge proposed-final-comment-period Currently awaiting signoff of a majority of team members in order to enter the final comment period. labels Jul 19, 2022

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Support @mscbot commands in PR review bodies matrix-org/mscbot-python#26

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Co-authored-by: Hubert Chathi <hubertc@matrix.org>

mscbot added proposal-in-review and removed proposed-final-comment-period Currently awaiting signoff of a majority of team members in order to enter the final comment period. disposition-merge labels Sep 1, 2022

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Remove support for the proposal-in-review label matrix-org/mscbot-python#27

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Per-device presence. (SYN-217) matrix-org/synapse#1264

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Respect OS Do Not Disturb mode element-hq/element-desktop#788

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How to communicate per-user experimental features to clients? matrix-org/matrix-spec#1532

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Time out busy presence status & test multi-device busy matrix-org/synapse#16174

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MSC3026: "busy" presence state #3026

MSC3026: "busy" presence state #3026

babolivier commented Feb 23, 2021 •

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		## Proposal

		A new presence state is added, `busy`, which describes a state where the user is

		presence state to `unavailable`, which is the closest state to `busy`
		semantically.

MSC3026: "busy" presence state #3026

Are you sure you want to change the base?

MSC3026: "busy" presence state #3026

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babolivier commented Feb 23, 2021 •

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