Add this suggestion to a batch that can be applied as a single commit.
This suggestion is invalid because no changes were made to the code.
Suggestions cannot be applied while the pull request is closed.
Suggestions cannot be applied while viewing a subset of changes.
Only one suggestion per line can be applied in a batch.
Add this suggestion to a batch that can be applied as a single commit.
Applying suggestions on deleted lines is not supported.
You must change the existing code in this line in order to create a valid suggestion.
Outdated suggestions cannot be applied.
This suggestion has been applied or marked resolved.
Suggestions cannot be applied from pending reviews.
Suggestions cannot be applied on multi-line comments.
Suggestions cannot be applied while the pull request is queued to merge.
Suggestion cannot be applied right now. Please check back later.
New issue
Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.
By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.
Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account
Changes to CoC requirements #984
Changes to CoC requirements #984
Changes from 3 commits
9070b4a
f057951
ab23997
d6df92f
ab5aa51
fc8a397
898ac9e
40661c0
File filter
Filter by extension
Conversations
Jump to
There are no files selected for viewing
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I'm uneasy with this. If the objection is substantiated (e.g. the person has seriously violated the CoC in the past, or is known to hold racist or sexist positions publicly, for example), they can't sit in the CoC team regardless of whether or not they'd be voted in.
Not sure what the best solution is, here. Maybe the existing CoC team could decide whether to confirm or overrule the objection?
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I can't imagine any of us would +1 a person that did such things you described. It would be an automatic rejection, no?
That's what might be a little bit confusing with the wording. My understanding (as I was in the meeting) is that for someone to be approved it needs everybody from the Voting Members to give +1 if anybody gave a -1 that person would not be accepted until a second round of majority voting.
I think with the voting and +1 we must assume good judgement. I can't imagine we would all agree on adding someone to a CoC team that explicitly violated the CoC or has a known history of public harassment or anything that would violate our CoC
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Well, simple majority doesn't require all to agree. That's precisely my point.
That's also why I mention a substantiated objection. "I don't like them" isn't substantiated.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
What happens when a consensus is not reached, probably due to the violations @tobie has mentioned?
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I think if no consensus is reached, the member doesn't get approved? I haven't re-read the text (on a phone rn) but if it's not explicit enough, we should make it.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
So that's precisely what I'm asking for, but it's neither what simple majority voting (what is currently proposed in the PR) nor what STV (what is currently proposed in an edit above) does.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
In the Node.js project, where there is no voting on moderation team membership, the requirement is that there are no objections. Perhaps we should merge the two approaches as such: a vote happens, but if there is an objection to any nomination, that person will not be eligible.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I still don't understand why we should be voting in the first place.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I like the "moderators self nominate and there must be no objections from the leadership body or bodies that get moderated, recertification once a year" process since:
I will say that there have been times where the process didn't work the way I liked - but I am unable to discuss any of it here (except with TSC members) due to privacy/confidentiality.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
+1 to @benjamingr comment.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
OMG NOT MORE VOTING!!
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
More seriously, we should use consensus to agree on a panel that we feel is a good fit for the mission and diverse enough. We shouldn't be voting on this, imho.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
@tobie there is still voting. Maybe the phrasing was just not the best, but there is definitely still voting 🙃
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Voting if we don't come to consensus seems OK. It's vaulting by default that's problematic.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
FWIW I just want to restate what I shared in today's working session and what I've said before:
I highly recommend that we follow a process where voting isn't necessary, and people who are nominated or self-nominate are selected based off of complete consensus - in effect, zero -1s - from the CPC membership. Whether this is voting membership or full CPC membership, I don't particularly mind. If there are only +1s, the person is added to moderation. One minor addition, if there is a CPC member who wants to vote -1 but does not want to do so publicly, they should be able to reach out to the Chair and share that -1 with a reason, and have the Chair proxy that -1.
I do not believe that we need to have dedicated sessions in CPC meetings for this selection to happen. This has happened in GitHub Issues in Node.js for years now without significant issue (there was one time where someone was on an extended vacation and missed a deadline to -1 when they wanted to -1).
Specifically noting some things from @tobie's suggestion:
IMO this document will be no different than the existing Membership Expectations document. If it's more restrictive, I'd prefer Membership Expectations to be updated to be more restrictive.
If there is something else that follows into "etc", I would very clearly define it here. Leaving an open end in a space like this results in gray areas that often get ignored or brushed off, which is not a situation I want us to be in for something as important as moderation.
Also, how do you define Substantiated? If someone's putting out white supremacist or TERF dog whistles but not explicitly saying things, would that be considered substantiated?
I'd like to request that this also include a section about company affiliation to disallow over-representation of single corporate entities.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Thanks for your insightful comments, @bnb, and apologies for missing today's call.
As mentioned earlier, I would prefer that we operated (across the organization in general, not just here) with the intent of forming teams to fulfill clearly stated missions, rather than through self-nomination, approval, or voting, as these create a false sense of democracy while limiting candidates to those who are confortable self-nominating.
That's a fair point. +1
I understand your point. However, we can't reasonably provide a complete list and examples are useful. So my suggestion here would be to find a list of examples, and be clear about its lack of completeness.
I should have said "motivated" rather than "substantiated." Would that alleviate your concern?
I feel like this is captured in the requirement to "create a diverse and representative group." I'm personally more concerned about project homogeneity than corporate homogeneity for a CoC group (I'd have different concerns for the board, for example). WDYT?
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Are you aware of anyone who wanted to be a moderator and was OK with being nominated but was not willing to self-nominate? I'm asking to learn it sounds very counter-intuitive since it's a role that requires you to have unpleasant conversations and put yourself in the middle of conflict.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
My point is only that having a diverse group requires outreach.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I would not recommend adding people to this group that are not members of one of our projects.