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Feature: Community status metadata #193
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If you're aware of inactive groups, I'll deactivate them. I don't police the groups, but I deactivate sleeping ones when they're brought to my attention. Generally speaking if a group's website is down, or 1+ years out of date, and there's no mailing list activity then I deactivate them. I notify the group leader so they can correct the problem(s), at which time I reactivate them. e.g. #184 |
Yeah, "policing" is not what I'm talking about. I'm proposing adding some extra metadata fields so the people who are organising a group can share organisational matters with people in their area beyond the obvious existential stuff. |
Oh, ok, sure. What do you want to add? https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html#xml |
A bit unsure, so I guess I'd love to start with a short exploration of the topic? To get it going, I'm thinking it would be good to distinguish between help that a group needs from what it wants. For example,
I guess there are other tasks or roles... Can you think of any? |
Don't let me dissuade you from whatever you want to do. Go for it! Extend the DTD as you like. 🙂 That said, my personal thoughts are that:
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That level of meta information really does feel like it's useful to each individual group - and that's what their mailing lists (or how ever they communicate) are for... Putting it centrally - it will just be out of date before you begin! |
I'm unsure if it's clear enough. My experience is that most businesses that use Open Source don't really follow their communities close enough to realize this. So for me, this suggestion is more about making "tribal" knowledge like this visible and available for everyone, than adding to the fanciness of the spec. 😅
I can't claim knowledge about how things are done across most of the Perl Mongers, but my impression about the few I've been exposed to, is that...
With that said, my proposal isn't useful alone, but probably has to be one of several improvements to how this community operates. For example, I think it would make sense to explore ways of regularly reaching out to the group organizers with relevant reminders and news about the site.
This is true for us all. 😅 (…or when I'm in a more poetic mood – "This is the human condition, is it not? 😅") |
Maybe? I don't think a mail produces the same communicative effect as a status page though, so I'm not sure I agree with you. You do have a point though. If metadata like these are to become useful, they'll have to be relevant, "recent enough", and easy to update as they change. To find out what fields are needed for this to become relevant is the topic of this ticket. 😁 Finding ways to keep the fields' contents "recent enough" is both a question related to the typical update-frequency and "staticness" of any given field, and therefore also a topic for this ticket? 😄 And with regard to ways to update the fields... First, we already have a really good way of doing it (PR's to this repo), but I'm guessing the reason people don't do it is more related to ignorance of the possibility of this, or perhaps due to lack of people who care enough to do it? (assuming their ignorance has been addressed) In any case, I think that's a topic worth exploring it's own ticket. 🙂 |
One resource you might not be aware of: There is still a Group Leaders Mailman list, so the ~230 Group Leaders can all email each other en masse whenever they want. https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html#Mailman No one has posted to that list since ~2018. From inside what might be my blind spot, I don't see how Perl folk outside Omaha could help me relaunch Omaha.pm even if I wanted to do that. If I wanted to do that, I should gather people in Omaha interested in Perl. I'm not aware that there are any anymore. All the nerd events I attend, I'm known as the Perl guy, haven't found others. (I found one Raku hobbyist once, which blew my mind, but they didn't want to attend any local meetup, and have since moved.) (Not just Perl, this is also true of Omaha Python and Golang. I've been chatting on local nerd boards about (re-)starting a group for those languages too, have gathered zero interest.) |
Learned a new term today. 😅 |
Hm. I can't seem to log in there, and I'm getting a 500-error when accessing the "Unsubscribe or edit options" form on the pm_groups list page. Are you in a position to investigate?
Yeah, I guess your story may be a common one. Still, maybe it's worth shifting the perspective a little, in order to think anew on some of these issues? For example:
My point is that "Open Source Community" is a topic that's going to become more and more relevant for businesses (since FOSS Security is not possible without a FOSS Community), and this can – if we play our cards carefully before then – be used to help revive the communities nearby these businesses. 😁
Ooof. I can relate with this too. There seems to be a lot of "bystanderism" going on, it seems. Or a lack of interest in community building/care/sustainability in general? 😞 |
Huh. Seems I was removed from pm_groups in 2009, and I didn't even notice 😅 But sure, that sounds like a good place to announce some updates and/or run a survey about community status metadata. |
Re: https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups
Yup. Are you a group leader? I don't see
They are? I'm looking for a job. Any links to Perl telecommuting jobs would be great! ❤️
That's what pm.org does, right? It shows anyone looking for a group where the active groups are?
I mean... Can I at least have dibs on applying for the first Omaha Perl job before we open it up to global competition? 😉 They can pass on me, that's fine, but I'd at least like to apply. I hired a Perl dev in Omaha in 2003... he said that was super rare, even back then.
Broadly, there seems to be less interest in nerd meetups since covid. And broadly, Perl / Python / Golang appear to be less used, or used by people disinterested in physical meetups. (Which is fine. I get it. Jobs can be exhausting, maybe the last thing you want after 40 hours of coding is more coding / computer talk.) Again, don't let me dissuade you from extending our |
Huh. I got a "pending subscriptions" email (Salve J. Nilsen) Tue Aug 13 02:46:56 2024, but I logged in and:
Did you want to be on the list? |
Seems https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html already has a status attribute as part of the group elements. I can see the following ones:
Together with these, quite a few have XML comments associated with them. So, for a first few fixes, I think it would be smart to to this..
What do you guys think? |
That's fine, I can merge any such PR.
Isn't the
Yup, feel free to extend our DTD however you want. |
Could you also join in with the brainstorming? 😅
Maybe as a data source? Adding structured (but not
Part of what I'm proposing here is to use enumerators, which means I'll need some help figuring out what they should be. Wanna help? 😄 |
Oh, and I guess some of the tooling in |
I think Oslo.pm forgot to update this file after Marcus Ramberg stepped down. I guess I'm the current one, though we haven't had any activity since before Covid. I guess you could reset it to my old address? I don't need to be on the list. I was just curious about what was in the archives, but was blocked from looking at them as I wasn't a list member. I had forgotten that this one is only for group leaders. (On a side note: I think groups should be allowed to assign more members, so they aren't forced into creating another burnout-prone SPOF due to "pm.org policy") |
Don't know how things are in the U.S., but yes, there's been a slump a while in Europe too, now. It's still possible to find stuff, and for anyone up for diving into the DevSecOps space, there'll be a bunch of opportunities showing up next year, I'm predicting. 😄
Yes, it does the basics, but could do so much more – like showing community status metadata clearly! 😉
🎶 Yeah, yeah, yeah, the excitement's gone, all-gone, but the systems are still a-humming! Mmm-hm-hmm. 🎶
If you'd like to, I'd love a sounding-board and co-brainstormer for this ticket! 😅 |
Like this? #194
I'll add you if you're the new group leader.
You can have as many group leaders as you want. Several groups have multiple |
Sweet! In that case, please keep Marcus on the list, until he says he wants to be removed! :) |
Personally, I'm not worried about it. As long as Perl Mongers is down to 28 groups that have 1+ posts to their mailing list this year. Presumably several more groups are active, using things other than MailMan? I want to empower you and others to do whatever you want to improve pm.org, but personally I need to throw my hours at landing a new job. Which shouldn't slow you down. ❤️ |
I too am rather busy, and what I'm doing here is a "drive-by contribution", so that's why I'm asking for certain types of interaction. I'll slow down when the interaction slows down. 😉 With that said, those stats are useful! Can we integrate these somehow? (e.g. convert it to JSON and visualize it somehow in the UI?) If the code producing that file is in a repo somewhere, we could make it into JSON, for example? Also, you've helped me realize these pages can become more useful if group tzars get the capability to add links to "alternative communities" (e.g. meetup groups or "techies in the pub" events or "nerd boards" or whatever)... What do you think? |
MailMan is only one way groups might be communicating. It wouldn't be fair to such groups for pm.org to "shame" them for having low MailMan stats if they're active elsewhere. :) If a group is entirely inactive, we inactivate them until they find 1+ new leaders.
Several groups already use the XML to register their various social medias. The website puts little icons of those social medias on their group page at pm.org. e.g.:
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Ah, no. Why would you assume this is about shaming anyone? 😮 (WTF, seriously, man! 😠) I'm looking for ways to signal "volunteers needed" more explicitly. But sure, if someone insists at considering community health metrics, then mailing list activity is a useful indicator. There is no shame in not volunteering, but if someone cares about their community/ecosystem/open source colleagues, then it is good to be made aware of any activity that can help them produce another positive signal.
If you add "shaming" to this table, you are basically blocking efforts that make more people aware. NOT A GOOD THING. BAD, BAD, BAD. DO NOT DO THIS! 😠
Oh nice! Is this documented somewhere? |
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Right. Thanks. This isn't reflected in the DTD, though. Also, after letting this sink in for a moment, "social media" isn't the same as "alternative communities", is it? 😄 I'm thinking of meetup and facebook groups that organize events. I get that there may be a concept overlap, though I think it would be clearer (and more useful?) if one can have a separate link for signing up/joining the member forums/communities and for their SoMe contact points. Hmm. |
Would it be meaningful to somehow distinguish defunct/hibernating groups from the ones that are active?
I haven't put much thought into this particular topic, but I guess CPANSec's attempt at a list of project conditions may be an inspiration?
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