Official name bikeshed

[syg]

With Realms at Stage 3, let's have an earnest bikeshedding discussion on the name "Realm". We've talked about renaming it many times in the past but AFAICT never had the earnest discussion. The shape of the current proposal has deviated sufficiently from long-standing uses of "Realm" in ecma262 and HTML that a different name seems more appropriate.

At the July TC39, we have consensus that the major JS vendors (browsers + node) will hold off shipping (but not implementing!) until we've bikeshedded.

[ljharb]

Of the ones i've heard tossed around so far, "CallableBoundary" seems the most apt.

[Jack-Works]

Isolate 🤣

[syg]

Isolate

Hard pass. :)

[guybedford]

I wonder if Membrane makes sense?

[syg]

I wonder if Membrane makes sense?

Also no IMO, because it is not really a membrane in the technical sense. So far I also think CallableBoundary is the most accurate.

[mhofman]

CallableBoundary is a bit of a mouthful for a user visible API. It also doesn't capture the fact you get a whole new set of intrinsics and that module instances are not shared.

Context like Isolate is a very overloaded term. I unfortunately don't have any better ideas that come to mind.

[ljharb]

a bit of a mouthful for a user visible API

SharedArrayBuffer and FinalizationRegistry would like to have a word with you :-p

[kriskowal]

Riffing: Intrinsics (new Intrinsics()), ParallelRealm, ThroughTheLookingGlass (LookingGlass, Glass, certainly not Window).

I still like Realm. It fits the bill and the probability of another first-class API appearing that would be a stronger contender for the name is unlikely. It’s far more likely that we’d parameterize the existing Realm constructor for variations on the theme. That there are multiple internal names fit the bill doesn’t condemn the public name, and some of those internal things might be factored differently in the future anyway, as we decompose the notion of a worker/page/agent which consists of a realm (for intrinsics) which consists of a compartment (for module graphs).

[leobalter]

From all the previous name bikesheds I've seen about Realms, CallableBoundary doesn't seen bad.

If we want something even more accurate I'd say CallableBoundaryRealm would be better, but only in this aspect. CallableBoundary translates well what this API does.

I'm in favor of this name because it's also very specific to this API and this is very helpful for users to search and find related documentation without noise.

The closest concept name I'd think would be an Acrylic Glove Box, and I hoped for it to have a specific single name, maybe in German.

I'd like to register one of the concerns for this name is the confusion of other things sharing the name in the HTML spec reality. This creates confusion there and implementation. @syg might correct me if I said anything wrong. IMO, this is a compelling argument and I'm fine with a distinct name.

I'll have a PR-draft open to make sure I capture all the parts that would need to be renamed. Maybe seeing it from a rendered spec would make it easier to digest.

[kriskowal]

The closest concept name I'd think would be an Acrylic Glove Box, and I hoped for it to have a specific single name, maybe in German.

You win this round @leobalter. Do we camel case with a hump for every composite of a compound German word likeAcrylHandSchuhFach?

[Jack-Works]

IsolateRealm?

[ljharb]

I still think using "isolate" as a noun, instead of a verb, is very weird.

[Jack-Works]

I still think using "isolate" as a noun, instead of a verb, is very weird.

Then IsolatedRealm

[leobalter]

I believe Isolated or any derivation won't be successful as some delegates don't see this API as full isolation set.

The problem for the naming here is that every name we pick will have objections against.

I'm not kidding that we need to pick the least offensive name.

[caridy]

The prior art is "Context", which is available in node, jscore/ios and v8/android. Creating a new Context(), or new CallableContext() reads well IMO.

[ljharb]

"Context" is way too overloaded a term (think scope) - i'm pretty strongly opposed to that.

[Jamesernator]

My feeling is that names like CallableBoundary doesn't desribe the core functionality of a new "Realm" which is a set of intrinsics/builtin/global. The callable boundary aspect is more of an interface.

Perhaps something like GlobalScope/GlobalEnvironment/FreshBuiltins, admittedly I like none of these extra words like Scope/Environment/Fresh but perhaps there's a more fitting word.

This kind of naming makes more sense with the methods, e.g. globalEnvironment.evaluate(script) can be read as evaluate the script script in the global environment globalEnvironment. (Names like CallableBoundary don't make as much sense, e.g. you wouldn't evaluate a script IN a "callable boundary", the boundary is only the thing that separates the global scopes).

[ljharb]

Since it doesn't provide an actual global object/globalThis, or a container of intrinsics/builtins/etc, then the name shouldn't imply that.

[Jamesernator]

Since it doesn't provide an actual global object/globalThis, or a container of intrinsics/builtins/etc, then the name shouldn't imply that.

But that's exactly what it does, it's just that you can't interact with it except through the evaluate/import methods. The fact the global scope isn't directly accessible doesn't mean it isn't there. And in fact, with a membrane you can almost directly interact with it as if they were just another set of intrinsics.

[Jack-Works]

Maybe Realm is good enough

[ljharb]

Sure, but this isn’t a membrane, and this thing isn’t actually the thing you’re interacting with - it’s still just a screen even if i can use it to remotely view and interact with another place :-)

[erights]

I agree with @Jack-Works that just Realm is fine. It's not like the current exposed realms of iframes or vm.createContext are already widely known as realms, so I don't think calling this new thing Realm would be confusing.

[ljharb]

@erights https://github.com/search?q=cross-realm seems relatively widely used as a justification for use of Array.isArray, among other things.

[caridy]

CallableRealm?

[leobalter]

@caridy please no! Because the constructor throws a TypeError if new target is undefined makes me not want to call it CallableRealm.

[bathos]

Since it doesn't provide an actual global object/globalThis, or a container of intrinsics/builtins/etc, then the name shouldn't imply that.

Agreed, please don't call it "intrinsics" given some of us are still hopeful that a future proposal will provide what we were hoping this one would (fresh intrinsics).

[victornpb]

Here’s some alternative names, in no particular order:

• new Container()
• new Bubble()
• new Land()
• new Arena()
• new Canister()
• new Crate()
• new Jar()
• new Bowl()
• new Capsule()
• new Vase()

I particularly like Realm but something like Land seems pretty close to the original but being different at the same time.

[mhofman]

I actually like Bubble. It's a sphere with a boundary isolating the inside and outside. And lexically it fits nicely between Agent and Compartment.

[erights]

Yay Bubble !

Btw, the thing the spec calls "Agent" I hope we never expose in an API with the name "Agent". This would be the worst terminology choice of all. So I discount the lexical argument for Bubble ;) . I like it anyway.

[erights]

Here’s some alternative names, in no particular order:

• new Container()

Too similar to Compartment. With both in the language, will people naturally remember which is which? Is it more natural that multiple containers fit in a compartment or that multiple compartments fit into a container?

• new Bubble()

Memorably different and enjoyably playful. But does it make any metaphorical sense to have multiple compartments inside each bubble?

• new Land()

I just don't like it. Since I don't know why I don't, I cannot know I would not get used to it. But I don't like it.

• new Arena()

Interesting. Would like to hear more.

• new Canister()

Same reaction as with Container. People won't remember which is the canister and which the compartment unless there's a least a good metaphor to explain which goes into which.

• new Crate()

Fatal Rust conflict

• new Jar()

Fatal Java conflict

• new Bowl()

Interesting. Would like to hear more.

• new Capsule()

Interesting. Would like to hear more.

• new Vase()

Interesting. Would like to hear more.

[chris-kruining]

ShadowRealm anyone?

maybe this could be intuitive to use if you are familiar with shadowDOM

[kriskowal]

SatelliteRealm satisfies my earlier thoughts about creating a system of names where at least part of the name indicates how related features of the language nest. I’ve suggested that the word Globe or Global both highlights the distinguishing feature of compartments (each has a unique global object) and also a basis for an astronomical metaphor for how they nest: a globe (née compartment); a globe and its satellites (née realm); a system of stars, planets, and satellites (née agent or worker), a cluster of stars (née agent cluster).

• GlobalRealm
• SatelliteRealm
• SystemRealm
• ClusterRealm

[leobalter]

@ljharb I had internal convos a while ago about IsolatedRealm and got feedback about it not being a good enough name. I can't remember the details, maybe @caridy does?

@chris-kruining @jdalton I like ShadowRealm conceptually looks like Shadow DOM, but they differ so much in how the API works and connects things.

Shadow* has the precedent in the web, so I'm keeping ShadowRealm in my list.

@kriskowal's comment supports my thoughts for SatelliteRealm, compared to ShadowRealm it lacks the precedent, but the distinction might be good here.

I now believe these names are better than CallableBoundary, so I'm dropping it from my personal list.

I'm also dropping support for Bubble for the reasons well illustrated by @othermaciej here, although, Realm still feels like good enough for me if we don't find an alternative.

Here is the list with no preference order:

• Realm
• SatelliteRealm
• ShadowRealm

I intend to present this at the upcoming TC39 meeting.

[domenic]

Thanks for the work here @leobalter and others.

One thing to note is that regardless of the developer-facing name, we almost certainly need a distinct specification name for these sorts of realms. There's much less pressure on that choice since the only cost to it being awkward or changing in the future is to specification people. But I suspect be important for web platform integration work.

To give an example, if you chose Realm for the API, we could use something like "Realm-constructor-created Realms" in specs.

(Personally I'm still rooting for Bubble, but smart people disagree with me 😉.)

[caridy]

(Personally I'm still rooting for Bubble, but smart people disagree with me 😉.)

I feel the same. Bubble is my preferred choice. I don't believe @othermaciej's point is fatal, for experts or novices, a name that is easy to remember will always win.

[leobalter]

Thanks, @domenic. I wonder if you have any concern about SatelliteRealm so I can bring this forward to the plenary.

I understand Bubble is preferred (echoed by @caridy), but I believe both of these names enable the same functionality that is not possible by the "Realm-constructor-created Realms" counter argument.

From one aspect, SatelliteRealm makes is much easier to search on the web what this constructor is about. Bubble is better than Realm itself, IMO it might mislead to other very distinct concepts such as event bubbles or bubble sorting.

[leobalter]

To make it clear, I'm pulling back Bubble and re-adding it to the discussion for the reasons above.

[domenic]

No concerns about SatelliteRealm.

[jridgewell]

I don't see "foreign" mentioned anywhere here, we could try ForeignRealm.

[ljharb]

I dont think qualifiers of “satellite” or “foreign” really explain what the difference is :-/

[bathos]

I’ve used the term "foreign realm" to refer to “any realm that isn’t the local realm” for a long time, but I’m not sure if that’s common or if that’s just me? In particular it suggests “surprise” realms — e.g. “be mindful that instanceof results may be counterintuitive for objects from foreign realms”. If others share this interpretation, it probably isn’t a suitable qualifier for this.

[Jack-Works]

foreign object and exotic object might be confusing 👀

[syg]

TC39 has reached consensus on ShadowRealm, so closing this thread.

See you all there.

[oldmud0]

Pardon for speaking out of line, but is the committee aware that "shadow realm" is the name of a popular meme? I was quite surprised that there was no reference to this fact anywhere in the proposal.

[erights]

Wow. I, for one, had no idea. Thanks.

[ljharb]

It was discussed in our matrix channel during the plenary item; those familiar with the meme felt it was apropos (not that the meme had anything to do with the naming).

[Jack-Works]

This one? Looks horrifying 😂

[bathos]

It's a colorful English "stock phrase" for mysterious secondary realities which has been used in poetry, fantasy novels, etc for a lot longer than Yu-Gi-Oh or a specific meme based on it have existed.

[leobalter]

I knew it had references from Yu Gi Oh and Zelda. Trying to keep the professionalism and not sabotage this bikeshed, I avoided knowing the references while confirming with people the references don't have issues such as - but not limited to - hate speech or violence.

[GrantGryczan]

To add onto the last few comments, I'll note that I found the name "shadow realm" very funny, and if I were developing using this I would not be able to stop thinking about its colloquial meaning every time I use it. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing though, haha.