New recipe for tin (from empty tin can) #23767

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-19T08:34:15Z

Justification is that in absence of finding a metal pot early on (due to low-density/non-existent cities perhaps, or simply low item spawn settings) and no nearby river for clay, the player's only real method to obtain a level 3 cooking tool currently is to set up a forge and forge a steel pot. This is fine, but I wanted to make crafting a copper pot a viable alternate route. In the current build this is entirely dependent on finding a pewter plate or bowl for the tin required, AFAIK the only source of tin in the game. Here, I add a recipe for tin, extracted from empty tin cans via electrolysis, as detailed in this patent.

Two things to note: Firstly, I had to introduce a method for electrolysis, since that is an integral part of the process. Standard 1.5V batteries are woefully undervoltage for this application. As vehicle batteries are defined as magazines, I could not use their charges in the recipe directly, so as a workaround I created a new item, "electolysis kit," which accepts vehicle batteries as magazines. Its only use currently, of course, is this recipe. I realize this is a bit of a hack, and if the PR does not get merged due to this I will totally get it. However, if that does end up being the case, I would appreciate some guidance as to where I could go in the C++ code to allow charges from MAGAZINE type items to be used in crafting.

The second note is that I reduced the default charges of tin to 10 from 200, as getting 200 tin per can is absurd. Does this have any effects beyond the amount received from recipes and the amount that appears when it spawns? (Does tin even spawn anywhere? I don't think I've ever seen it)

…eries in crafting

NotFuji · 2018-05-19T09:11:46Z

A soldering iron and 50 copper wire is easier to find than a pot?

Night-Pryanik · 2018-05-19T09:12:26Z

data/json/items/tools.json

+    "id": "electrolysis_kit",
+    "type": "TOOL",
+    "name": "electrolysis kit",
+    "description": "A set of wiring and electrodes for applying a direct current, usually to a liquid. Useful for crafting. Load with a storage battery or 12V vehicle battery to use.",


Please use two spaces after periods.

Ok thanks, will try to remember that in future.

Night-Pryanik · 2018-05-19T09:13:33Z

data/json/items/tools.json

+    "type": "TOOL",
+    "name": "electrolysis kit",
+    "description": "A set of wiring and electrodes for applying a direct current, usually to a liquid. Useful for crafting. Load with a storage battery or 12V vehicle battery to use.",
+    "weight": 5,


5 grams and 0,25 liters for an electrolysis kit?

50 copper wire is 0.15 L + 2 scrap metal is 0.05 L + some solder ~= 0.25 L. The real volume and weight comes from the battery once it's loaded in.

The 5 gram weight was for sure an oversight, though. Should probably be 250 grams.

Night-Pryanik · 2018-05-19T09:16:24Z

data/json/recipes/recipe_electronics.json

+  "difficulty": 2,
+  "time": 10000,
+  "reversible": true,
+  "autolearn": true,


Maybe it's better to add this recipe to some book? I feel the electrolysis is rather complicated process to figure it on its own.

"Electrolysis kit" in this case is just a fancy name for a couple copper wires hooked up to improvised steel electrodes. Not your typical complex lab setup, any dabbling electrician could figure it out. I think the other recipe might warrant that though, stripping tin by combination of acid + electrolysis is pretty obscure knowledge. Any suggestion for which book?

The tin stripping recipe is more of a chemistry, or of an electronics?

Hmm... more chemistry for sure. It would fit right in the chemistry textbook. But the rarity would sorta defeat the purpose, this should often be available fairly early on if it's to be useful. But the recipe could also be spun as fabrication as well, and put in 101 crafts for beginners, engineering 301, and/or DIY compendium. What do you think?

DIY compendium sounds OK.

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-19T10:37:30Z

@NotFuji In my current game (I've been playing around with city spacing of 8, mixes up the early game a lot) I raided the nearest small town and a couple farmhouses and never found a pot. Unlucky, perhaps. But I did find a power substation and a screwdriver, which is basically all the electronics gear and copper I will ever need. Training electronics up to 2 for a soldering iron was pretty trivial at that point.

I am still open to removing the soldering iron as a requirement though. Do you think that would be better?

NotFuji · 2018-05-19T11:44:42Z

data/json/recipes/recipe_electronics.json

+  "components": [
+    [ [ "cable", 50 ] ],
+    [ [ "scrap", 2 ] ]
+  ]


Either the electrolysis kit or the tinplating recipe needs some kind of insulated container (glass). As-is there's nothing to put the acid bath in.

The plating recipe requires containing 1, but with that, you could electroplate a tin can inside a tin can, which shouldn't happen.

NotFuji · 2018-05-19T12:08:34Z

Replacing/substituting the copper wire with jumper cables would make it a little more feasible as a wilderness recipe. While you might have found a substation in your game, they're extraordinarily rare on average.

On a side note: I'm curious as to how tin helps you get a cooking vessel. Copper pots still require a hand press & die set, which is arguably a rare item, and requires more items to make than a simple iron pot. Clay pots can already be made with extremely minimal material.

BorkBorkGoesTheCode · 2018-05-19T16:13:52Z

Why does the copper pot require a hand press to make?

… recipe

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-19T21:36:24Z

Thanks for all the feedback guys! I've allowed jumper cables in the electrolysis kit recipe, and made the following changes to the tin recipe:

Now requires cooking 4 rather than fabrication 2
No autolearn, found in chemistry textbook, DIY Compendium, or Welding and Metallurgy.
Requires either a glass jar or a 3L glass jar, rather than a containing quality of 1.

@NotFuji

Copper pots still require a hand press & die set

Great point, I had somehow missed that when designing this change. I'm with @BorkBorkGoesTheCode here; I'm baffled as to why you would need either a hand press or a die set to create a crude copper pot. Presumably you would just make a mold from sand, mud, or clay and pour the copper in. What do people think about removing the hand press & die requirement?

smolbird · 2018-05-20T07:04:56Z

I assumed it was for the tin, not the copper. In which case alternatives absolutely should be available.

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-20T07:31:17Z

@smolbird Sorry, what do you mean? Are you talking about alternatives to the hand press & die set? If so, what alternatives do you suggest? I had just assumed the copper and tin were being alloyed together for a bronze, since the ratio is roughly right for it.

BorkBorkGoesTheCode · 2018-05-20T07:42:29Z

@DaviBones the tin is being used as an acid-resistant liner for the pot interior. Quoting the copper pot description:

"Made from copper, with a lining of tin to prevent metal from leaching into acidic foods."

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-20T07:54:24Z

Oh wow, my bad. Thanks for that. Suppose I ought to read item descriptions more.

Huh.... Turns out the tin-stripping process is reversible in a way. Check it out:

https://hackaday.com/2012/10/14/diy-tin-plating-for-bus-bars/

…and press

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-20T23:00:01Z

Added a new recipe for the copper pot based on the article I linked above.

…ripping

SilearFlare · 2018-05-24T15:50:31Z

couldn't you simply melt the tin on a hot enough fire instead of doing the elctrolysis thing

Zireael07 · 2018-05-24T16:21:39Z

@tyrael93: Tin melts at very very high temperatures, you can't really achieve them on a fire.

Soadreqm · 2018-05-24T16:53:52Z

Pure metallic tin melts at 232°C, which is not very high.
Aren't tin cans made of steel, though?

NotFuji · 2018-05-24T17:04:15Z

Modern ones aren't made of tin, they're either made of aluminum or steel lined with plastic.
Even older ones only contain about 2-3 grams of tin per can.

Davi-DeGanne · 2018-05-25T01:38:25Z

@tyrael93 The issue would be coating the inside of the pot evenly. With such a small amount of tin, it would be nearly impossible even with modern casting/molding techniques, nevermind primitive ones made of sand/clay/whatever.

@NotFuji Yes, there is a bit of embellishment going on here, but much less embellishment, I would argue, than the only other source of tin in the game, pewter tableware -- pewter is an alloy "composed of 85–99% tin, mixed with copper, antimony, bismuth, and sometimes lead," not something you can just "disassemble" into its constituent metals, and certainly not safe for use in cookware as-is (no safer than pure copper at least).

kevingranade

Looks good to me, but I don't have time to pull and test right now.

ZhilkinSerg · 2018-06-17T10:07:09Z

data/json/recipes/other/materials.json

@@ -27,5 +27,19 @@
    "autolearn": true,
    "using": [ [ "forging_standard", 4 ], [ "steel_tiny", 4 ] ],
    "tools": [ [ [ "crucible", -1 ], [ "crucible_clay", -1 ] ] ]
+  },
+  {


Would you format it using http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/format.html please?

David DeGanne added 2 commits May 19, 2018 02:08

added electrolysis kit item: allows usage of charge from vehicle batt…

a65d663

…eries in crafting

added recipe for disassembly of tin can into raw tin and steel

2bb925d

ZhilkinSerg added [JSON] Changes (can be) made in JSON Crafting / Construction / Recipes Includes: Uncrafting / Disassembling labels May 19, 2018

Night-Pryanik reviewed May 19, 2018

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NotFuji reviewed May 19, 2018

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David DeGanne added 3 commits May 19, 2018 15:13

fixed formatting and weight value for electrolysis kit

1df2db0

allow jumper cables as substitute for copper wire in electrolysis kit…

76885a4

… recipe

modified tin recipe according to feedback given

3f9f734

added new recipe for copper pot, using electrolysis kit rather than h…

9340198

…and press

modified new copper pot recipe to have similar requirements to tin-st…

98f0afe

…ripping

kevingranade approved these changes May 25, 2018

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ZhilkinSerg reviewed Jun 17, 2018

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kevingranade merged commit 98f0afe into CleverRaven:master Jul 6, 2018

Davi-DeGanne deleted the tin-recipe branch September 10, 2019 01:46

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New recipe for tin (from empty tin can) #23767

New recipe for tin (from empty tin can) #23767

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New recipe for tin (from empty tin can) #23767

New recipe for tin (from empty tin can) #23767

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