Replace Bootstrap 4 with Bootstrap 5

[todordev]

I think it's a perfect time to replace Bootstrap 4 with Bootstrap 5 in the templates Atum and Cassiopeia.
It is beta now, which is stable enough to be use it.
What do you think?

5 New Features in Bootstrap 5
Bootstrap 5 vs Bootstrap 4 – What’s New & What Changed?
Difference between Bootstrap 4 and Bootstrap 5
Bootstrap 5 Beta 1

[universewrld]

Since this is a beta version, I don't think there will be any significant changes in the final version (except for bug fixes).

it would be a logical step to use Bootstrap 5 in Joomla 4.

[softforge]

Great Idea but not for J4 as J4 is in beta itself and bs 5 would introduce breaking changes.
We desperately need J4 finished so that means only bug fixes, no enhancements or features, just fixing the things that are stopping it from releasing. 4.1 could then look at Bootstrap5 and absorb the breaking changes that are introduced

[brianteeman]

You can not introduce breaking changes in a minor release

[softforge]

Agreed but perhaps we would be able to introduce a bootstrap5 set of templates which people could choose to switch to. Just flying a kite but I think to try to add a beta to a beta at such a late stage and have yet more breaks and delay 4.0 further is not great and as bs is not stable yet it could still introduce change and breaks into J4

[todordev]

History will repeat itself.
Joomla 3 was released with Bootstrap 2 just before Bootstrap 3 came out. Nobody wanted to use it.
Don't make this mistake again.

Many more people will be happy if Joomla 4 be released with Bootstrap 5.

Take the risk and move on to Bootstrap 5. It will be beneficial to everyone.

[universewrld]

absolutely agree, sometimes it's worth taking the risk to win. we shouldn't be trapped in outdated technology again.

[brianteeman]

we're not

[Bakual]

Remember that Joomla 4 is written in a way which makes changing to another framework even simpler than it was in Joomla 3 (where it already was possible). So it absolutely doesn't matter with which Bootstrap version Joomla 4 is released, you can do whatever you want in your template.
The BS version is mainly important for the backend, where we expect that 3rd party extensions use it to get an uniform design.

[universewrld]

the problem is that 99% of developers will not make a template on Bootstrap 5 for the frontend. everyone will refer to the Joomla using Bootstrap 4.

Almost all extensions for Joomla 3 still use Bootstrap 2 by default, even 7 years after Bootstrap 2 was no longer supported.

[brianteeman]

factually untrue

[Bakual]

I know many 3rd party extensions which have a switch to toggle between BS2 and 3.
That being said, there are also templates using completely different Frameworks.
Obviously you need to override the layouts then in some cases. If the extension is written the right way, then that's is absolutely no problem for even a mediocre template designer / site builder.
The layout written by the extension developer is basically just a default layout. In many cases you want to adjust that to your needs anyway. And I have seen some very nice layouts for my own component where I was quite impressed.

[dgrammatiko]

Remember that Joomla 4 is written in a way which makes changing to another framework even simpler than it was in Joomla 3

That's afat lie and that comes from the guy that tried to create a template for J4 ( https://sloth-theme.site ) without any CSS framework. The work someone has to put in is immense and unless you have a project paying your shop $$.$$$ then, realistically, it just not viable. (the part that I didn't use any CSS framework has nothing to do with the number of rewrites someone has to do to release any template with or without any CSS framework, the difference is not using a bloated framework you get the best performance/SEO/etc out of the box without any weird optimisations)

[bembelimen]

@ITPrism would you be willing to elaborate how an implementation could look like targeting Joomla! 4.1, where the core templates support both versions (e.g. with a switch). The most important thing would be b/c, though.

[todordev]

I don't think maintaining both versions will benefit us. That will discourage many developers because it will cost them additional efforts and resources to adjust their extensions to Bootstrap 5.
It will be better to keep one version during the lifetime of Joomla 4 because it will be hard to rework extensions functionality for new backend template.
The latest Bootsrap should be used in Joomla 5.

If you would like, you can take a survey about what the community wants to use. That will give us a picture of what developers and designers need.
The developers are going to rework their extensions to meet the requirements of Joomla 4. I am not sure they will be happy to rework their extensions for J4.1 again. Furthermore, many of them will stop supporting Joomla 3.

[HLeithner]

BS 4 beta took 5-6 month till final release... targeting 4.0 is too late and depending on the implementation of bs5 may not be b/c.

I personally think that Joomla shouldn't continue to use an external css framework.

[b2z]

True, BS5 should go in.

[b2z]

BS5 is in Beta so we should not expect any breaking changes and move backend to it.

[Sulpher]

Please do not repeat that mistake that happened to Joomla 3.
While BS2 based Joomla 3 was released, BS3 was released too. And we got a lot of problems with the standardization: half of 3rd party developers used BS2 and the other part took more modern BS3. It leads to compatibility problems between templates/extensions.
Do not repeat such a mistake again.
It's better to adapt Joomla 4 to BS5 for the stable release.

[todordev]

I agree with you. It was horrible experience.

[todordev]

It will be easier to choose CSS framework for the front-end in J4. However, everyone will have to comply with the backend.
It would be much more important to avoid major changes to the backend in the future. If you choose Bootstrap 4 for J4, keep it as long as possible.
The approach should be the same if you choose Bootstrap 5. There will be small difference... Many more people will be happier if you choose Bootstrap 5. :)

[Bakual]

Again: It's to late for J4.0 to adopt BS5 (which isn't released yet). We don't want to delay 4.0 another half year.

[Sulpher]

There won't be global changes in BS5. You can release Joomla 4 with BS5 beta/RC. After half of year, the stable version of BS5 to be out and Joomla will be up-to-date with the actual BS version.

[Bakual]

We certainly will not release Joomla 4.0 with a beta version of Bootstrap. That's ridiculous.

[todordev]

There is still no release date for stable version of Joomla 4. I am absolutely sure the stable release of J4 will be published few months after the stable release of Bootstrap 5. We have plenty of time to do it. Furthermore, they are progressing so fast and they are already done with beta 2.

[Sulpher]

there is no deadline for J4 release, so the community awaited too much time and nothing bad can happen if we will wait some more time.

[drmenzelit]

It is not only replace the BS4 files with the new BS5 files, but changing EVERY view, layout, render, etc. to use the appropriate classes and reworking Atum and Cassiopeia.
I will be also happy to have BS5 or not framework at all, but it is an incredible amount of work and I don't know where we should take the manpower for this.
If someone is really interested on doing that, please create a working group and start working on it.

[Bakual]

A slimmed down CMS is certainly a good discussion to be held (and not a new one), but out of scope of this issue here :)

[softforge]

I think the rules say that its a major so J5.0 that would allow the BC breaks needed to move from BS4 to BS5
Personally we are so close to J4 out and BS5 is still itself a beta and thus should not be used on production sites that we cannot go that route.
But if @Sulpher and @ITPrism are up for the project of BS5 into Joomla they could form the working group and start with J4 and BS4 then we can bring out J4.1 and as soon as they are ready we could look to J5.0 Its all down to volunteers which we all are. That way if you succeed in your work it can hit J5.0 as a major feature and if it takes you a long time then core will undoubtedly pick it up when they can.
One thing to bare in mind, a lot of people working on updating Joomla are doing it just for fun, they have no financial gain, a few major players don't even have joomla websites or any business connected with joomla, all great volunteers who are doing it for the common good, so any change has to have the majority behind it

[PhocaCz]

I think the rules say that its a major so J5.0 that would allow the BC breaks needed to move from BS4 to BS5
Personally we are so close to J4 out and BS5 is still itself a beta and thus should not be used on production sites that we cannot go that route.
But if @Sulpher and @ITPrism are up for the project of BS5 into Joomla they could form the working group and start with J4 and BS4 then we can bring out J4.1 and as soon as they are ready we could look to J5.0 Its all down to volunteers which we all are. That way if you succeed in your work it can hit J5.0 as a major feature and if it takes you a long time then core will undoubtedly pick it up when they can.
One thing to bare in mind, a lot of people working on updating Joomla are doing it just for fun, they have no financial gain, a few major players don't even have joomla websites or any business connected with joomla, all great volunteers who are doing it for the common good, so any change has to have the majority behind it

The theme of volunteering is a vicious circle. After the faux paux that happened during the development of the backend template and the inability of the leadership to somehow express themselves towards the volunteer working on backend template, I think a lot of volunteers no longer have faith in volunteering in connection with the Joomla project. In fact, people don't even give feedback anymore, because every time they do, they're accused of not wanting to be volunteers. :-(

[todordev]

If we have no manpower, we should find a solution for that problem.
We can ask the biggest companies to give us a hand. There are so many companies that use Joomla as a base of their business.
Send a request for help to the biggest companies. Describe what the community would like to achieve in time (deadline). If the features are useful for them they can give us a hand.

The biggest companies will be able to do it for a week or two because they have enough manpower. We should just ask for help.

[Sulpher]

@softforge
I am sorry to say, but Joomla is not about volunteering only. Joomla is a platform that unites different people who use Joomla for their own purposes. The key to the success of any brand is communication and work with feedbacks.
Of course, it does not mean that any requests should be done and it is impossible especially for projects like Joomla, however, I believe that organic and polite discussion can make the CMS better.
To tell the truth, volunteering is the model that does not work in my opinion since enthusiasm ends when the person opens a refrigerator. All that can be done is to play with Joomla in the spare time. That's why the progress is so slow.
So, when anyone posts suggestions and feedbacks, it does not mean that such a person is ready to join volunteering.
I noticed that almost every idea ends with a suggestion from someone to be a volunteer.

• Guys, what about making this feature?
• No problem, join us and suggest your code

Such an approach does not work and the typical reaction is silence and lack of desire to suggest anything else in the future.

How to solve the problem?
COVID-19 made it impossible to organize any meetups and Joomladays. If it could be possible for OSM to diversify budget and invest funds that were saved due to no traveling/meetings to the development and pay money to professionals who could do everything quickly due to full-time engagement for some period of time, it definitely will save the situation.

[b2z]

If it could be possible for OSM to diversify budget and invest funds that were saved due to no traveling/meetings to the development and pay money to professionals who could do everything quickly due to full-time engagement for some period of time.

That's a brilliant idea.

@Bakual

We certainly will not release Joomla 4.0 with a beta version of Bootstrap. That's ridiculous.

https://blog.getbootstrap.com/2020/12/07/bootstrap-5-beta-1/

With our first beta release of Bootstrap 5, we’re calling it on new features and breaking changes. From here on out, we’re only fine-tuning features, bugs, and documentation on our way to a stable v5 release.

Bootstrap 5 beta 1 was released on December 7, 2020.
Bootstrap 5 alpha 3 was released on November 11, 2020.
Bootstrap 5 alpha 2 was released on September 29, 2020.
Bootstrap 5 first alpha was officially released on June 16, 2020.

They are moving fast and it seems that BS5 Stable will be released sooner then J4 Stable will be released. We can wait a little more for J4 as we have already waited :)

Will migration from v4 to v5 be easy?

It will certainly be easier than migrating from v3 to v4. There are definitely fewer syntax changes this time, and backward compatibility is much better guaranteed.

[PhocaCz]

If it could be possible for OSM to diversify budget and invest funds that were saved due to no traveling/meetings to the development and pay money to professionals who could do everything quickly due to full-time engagement for some period of time.

That's a brilliant idea.

@Bakual

We certainly will not release Joomla 4.0 with a beta version of Bootstrap. That's ridiculous.

https://blog.getbootstrap.com/2020/12/07/bootstrap-5-beta-1/

With our first beta release of Bootstrap 5, we’re calling it on new features and breaking changes. From here on out, we’re only fine-tuning features, bugs, and documentation on our way to a stable v5 release.

Bootstrap 5 beta 1 was released on December 7, 2020.
Bootstrap 5 alpha 3 was released on November 11, 2020.
Bootstrap 5 alpha 2 was released on September 29, 2020.
Bootstrap 5 first alpha was officially released on June 16, 2020.

They are moving fast and it seems that BS5 Stable will be released sooner then J4 Stable will be released. We can wait a little more for J4 as we have already waited :)

Who knows the bootstrap project, so knows that there is a Beta version really usable and complete. So build something on Bootstrap Beta means in fact zero changes for stable. And yes, it seems BS5 will be ready sooner than J4 stable.

There is one strong argument: We really need to release J! as soon as possible. The question is, should we do it with the same mistake which happened in J3?

What is more important? This is the question.

a) be a little late, even though everyone is allergic to it
b) or release it as soon as possible even we repeat the same mistake

?

It is hard to answer this question.

[Bakual]

Joomla 4 is in beta, which means it's feature complete. The same as BS5. There is no way BS5 will end up in J40.

We can look for a way to introduce it in J4.1. Depending on how much change to the layouts it needs and how big the B/C would be.
Technically, our B/C promise doesn't cover the layouts, so we could change them with J4.1 if we see good reasons.
For 4.0 it's just to late in the development cycle. We should focus mainly on the remaining release blockers now.

[b2z]

Joomla 4 is in beta, which means it's feature complete.
For 4.0 it's just to late in the development cycle. We should focus mainly on the remaining release blockers now.

Such a big thing could deserve some kind of exemption. IMHO.

[PhocaCz]

If we have no manpower, we should find a solution for that problem.
We can ask the biggest companies to give us a hand. There are so many companies that use Joomla as a base of their business.
Send a request for help to the biggest companies. Describe what the community would like to achieve in time (deadline). If the features are useful for them they can give us a hand.

The biggest companies will be able to do it for a week or two because they have enough manpower. We should just ask for help.

This is the problem because we in fact don't know what we want.

Example: backend template

It could be so easy to have nice working backend template - make a competition among the template developers, set the rules and then choose the best one. Easy.

But we didn't define what we want, so there was no progress regarding backend template for some months, so then the group of enthusiasts just did backend template (big thanks to them as it was huge work). But then there was professional template developer who provided template which was warmly received by the public. And the developer asked if his work could be implemented. There was no clear answer except saying, it must meet specific rules. The developer was ready to meet these rules but he wanted to know if his work will be used - some guarantee for not doing unnecessary work. And, ... and, ... and after infinite discussions, all participating parties just lost their motivation to finish it.

If I personally got some work into my project that would be 95% done and would be awesome, maybe I wouldn't bother developers with nonsensical requirements and I would finish the necessary ones myself. Be it is not about me, it is about the community and leadership where it is really hard to make decision.

So asking companies for help will not work here, as history just show us, it is in fact impossible :-(

[PhocaCz]

The following companies could help us.
joomlart, yootheme, joomforest, joomshaper, themexpert, rockettheme, joomlabuff, joomdev, joomla-monster

joomshaper created a backend template which was ready to 95% but circumstances just made it not happen (the discussions can be found) BTW what is sad in case joomshaper, they sponsor Joomla! https://ollyo.com/ and they wanted to help but sometimes ... just read the backend template discussion ... :-(

So it is really not easy to cooperate this way.

[todordev]

So it is really not easy to cooperate this way.

We could find another way.
It is not necessary the company to create the whole backend template. In this case, they can only replace B4 with B5 in the current template.
We can ask for help for small blocks of the big picture.
We could send to the companies information about the feature that we would like to implement. We can do it periodically, only if they want to receive. It could be a newsletter for supporters. If they have enough resources they could support Joomla! project.

[PhocaCz]

We can ask for help for small blocks of the big picture

But we don't know this. We should behave this way when developing Joomla! - to make small blocks, not a large version which takes 5 - 6 years of development.

The development should be done in small blocks (following is only an example to demonstrate it)

2015 - 2016 - Joomla! 4 - new router plus minor changes
2017 - 2018 - Joomla! 5 - update from BS2 to BS4 plus minor changes
2019 - 2020 - Joomla! 6 - new media manager plus minor changes
2020 - 2021 - Joomla! 7 - update from BS4 to BS5 plus minor changes
...

So we cannot ask external developers to help us with small blocks is we cannot plan "small blocks" development. :-(

[Bakual]

That was the original plan with J4. Just remove some legacy and then release. But it escalated "a bit" :-D

[todordev]

It seems volunteering is not enough.
We need to find other approaches to move forward faster.
I think, informing the largest companies about the features that the community planning to implement and asking for help is an option.
Do you have other ideas?
I guess, we should open another discussion about how to find more manpower.

[brianteeman]

If it could be possible for OSM to diversify budget and invest funds that were saved due to no traveling/meetings to the development and pay money to professionals who could do everything quickly due to full-time engagement for some period of time.

Please check the budget and see how little money you are talking about

[jeckodevelopment]

i'm not sure that people in the Community would like to have paid people working on the project.
i remind that the proposal to have "Sponsored features" or "Sponsored Sprints" was rejected, even though in both case the "control" was still in the hands of the volunteers community.... instead with paid people that wouldn't really happen.

[PhocaCz]

i'm not sure that people in the Community would like to have paid people working on the project.
i remind that the proposal to have "Sponsored features" or "Sponsored Sprints" was rejected, even though in both case the "control" was still in the hands of the volunteers community.... instead with paid people that wouldn't really happen.

Fortunately it turned out that in this case it is not a problem of volunteers, they are here and they did a great and fast job, so now it is a 'problem' of leadership decision.

[PhocaCz]

Please check the budget and see how little money you are talking about

It depends on where you live, if I have the correct information, for me, it is not so little :-)

[brianteeman]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DNrLoZ1srXh3t2zuyEUOfBwSzJhIbVXsoustdVVXwRk/edit#gid=1109019339

[brianteeman]

Forgot to add the source https://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/back-to-basics-osm-budget-fy-2020-21.html

[PhocaCz]

BTW it is not only about money but about motivation itself. There are other ways than money, Joomla! project can offer. But there is just no motivation for other to participate. :-(

Saying that companies who make money with Joomla! should participate is easy, but there is no motivation for them. They get Joomla! with or without participating.

[joeforjoomla]

The big problem of replacing BS4 with BS5 at this stage is the backend, that would require to rework the admin layout and all extensions like mine that have been rewritten to adopt the core version 4 of Bootstrap. This is a huge amount of work for the Joomla team and for extensions developers like me, i hope that who insists to replace BS4 with BS5 understands this.

The same if not worst would happen if BS4 is replaced with BS5 in the next Joomla 4.1. That could force extensions to switch layouts to support both BS4 and BS5 for people not promptly updating websites to Joomla 4.1.

So technically the whole lifecycle of Joomla 4.x should stay coupled with BS4 and have BS5 only with Joomla 5.
But this could be limited to backend only, nobody prevents the Joomla 4.1 core to include 2 separate assets for BS4 and BS5 that can be used in frontend for example by template developers. In these years there are plenty of extensions using and loading its own Bootstrap 3 for the frontend. So definitely this can be a good strategy to include BS5 for the next Joomla 4.1 without breaking the administrator area and forcing extensions to be rewritten across a minor release.

[ghost]

#32103

we saw that joomla 4 developers and extensions who have no skill or time to use Bootstrap 5 are very small number.

now we can see that Replace Bootstrap 4 with Bootstrap 5 is not good for joomla4 developers is science fiction

there are 1 deveoper who thinks Bootstrap 5 is bad and joomla 4 and wants to use b4

let us see if rdeutz thinks these PR is waste of time or in big need for joomla4

#31990

#32062

#32037

[hotthemes]

If I remember well, Joomla 1.0 and 1.5 didn't require Bootstrap. After 2.5 Joomla couldn't work without Bootstrap anymore. It's possible to avoid loading Bootstrap theoretically, but in practice, almost all core features will stop working in this case. So, Joomla devs are FORCED to use Bootstrap even if they don't want to. Joomla can't work properly without Bootstrap! If you decide to use the XY framework, you must make sure your project supports both Bootstrap and XY framework (not just XY framework). And this is an extremely hard and really not an entertaining task for devs...

So, Joomla's fate is nowadays related to Bootstrap. No Bootstrap, no Joomla!

The decision to include Bootstrap in Joomla and making Joomla dependant on it (or any other front-end framework) is the worst decision in Joomla history! I understand it makes the development faster, but I am sure this decision made much more damage than benefits overall.

Okay, Bootstrap was popular... maybe it's the best... However, it's 2021. New front-end frameworks are born (Tailwind, and other)... They bring new ideas, new technologies... And what about us? Joomla devs are stick with Bootstrap (2, or 3, or 6, I don't care...). If they decide not to use Bootstrap, they must decide not to use Joomla... and that's sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Tr7sveKMM

So, we have a Joomla dev in this video who would like to use Tailwind with Joomla, but he can't because Joomla is stick with Bootstrap. That's what I am talking about.

I dream about the day when Joomla will not be dependant on any front-end framework. And when Joomla devs will again have the option to use any front-end framework or none of them or build custom frameworks and combine them with Joomla. I know it's not gonna happen in 4.0, 4.1... How about 5.0 or 6.0?

Will Joomla be independent again? Any plans for this anytime in the future? What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

[Magnytu2]

it is not a lack of will. But a lack of resources, human, financial, etc ... I think we have to accept it and understand the choice of the team.

[ghost]

Joomla 4 is delayed and without a release date.
We see that there are no extension developers actively developing for J4 or BS4, and most people are on a wait-and-see attitude Replace Bootstrap 4 with Bootstrap 5. Now Joomla can't work properly without Bootstrap 5

#32107

[anibalsanchez]

Joomla! 4.0 will ship with Bootstrap 5
https://developer.joomla.org/news/839-joomla-4-0-will-ship-with-bootstrap-5.html

It is now official 👍

[ghost]

thank you :)

[hotthemes]

So, will we have another beta (7)? Or after beta6 with Bootstrap 4, we will have rc1 with Bootstrap 5?

[andiamine]

Thank you !! Great news !!

[wilsonge]

We will have another beta

[wilsonge]

This has been answered in the blog post above

[Magnytu2]

Merci beaucoup !

[Magnytu2]

I would like to thank all the developers who are on this project. But especially @dgrammatiko @brianteeman @wilsonge . I build sites for my pleasure, to please associations, ... And today it is the Joomla team that makes me happy. Thanks thanks thanks. I believe this decision is important for the future of Joomla!

[todordev]

That is great news! We did it together.
Big thanks to everyone involved in the implementation of this feature . 👏
Now we are ready to achieve together the next major goal. We have to make Joomla the greatest CMS for most people.

Let we focus on the major blockers and ship the stable release as soon as possible.

"Coming together is a beginning; keeping together is progress; working together is success."

[b2z]

Thank you all 😎

[andiamine]

Thank you all ! JoomBoost is going to use BS5 too !! 👍

[Magnytu2]

@brianteeman @wilsonge @nibra @dgrammatiko Hello, maybe silly question: Bootstrap 5 will be used both on the backend but also the frontend in Cassiopeia?

[drmenzelit]

Yes

[Magnytu2]

@drmenzelit , Hello, BS5 uses a wider range of grid widths. Are you going to use the one at 1320px which seems more appropriate to the A11Y access?

[drmenzelit]

I'm not sure, if I understand what you mean. Where do you want to have changes in the width?

[Magnytu2]

@drmenzelit If I look at bootstrap file 5, we can distinguish 5 container variables. With an xxl at 1320px. If I compare with Cassiopeia today we only see 4 variables, like bootstrap 4.

[drmenzelit]

We will check that :-)

[astridx]

If I see that correctly, we are using css grid for this?

[Magnytu2]

@astridx Yes, but does this prevent the use of 5 container sizes? And suddenly you arrive at a website with a width of 1320px.

[ssnobben]

Big hug and thanks to @ITPrism Todor for doing this for Joomla. Its a great long term decision that showed that mankind also can travel to the moon.

[anibalsanchez]

To update the topic with the latest news, Bootstrap 5 Beta 2 is out: https://blog.getbootstrap.com/2021/02/10/bootstrap-5-beta-2/

In the article, the team mentions that they are planning the next step. It could be a final Beta 3 or directly release the stable version depending on how development proceeds.

[dgrammatiko]

@anibalsanchez just in case you've missed it Joomla 4 has already been updated to beta2 (1 day delay or so from their release): #32378

[anibalsanchez]

I certainly missed that!

[hotthemes]

I have Joomla 4 Beta 7 and in source I see this:

<script src="/joomla/quattro4/media/vendor/bootstrap/js/bootstrap.es5.min.js?5.0.0-beta1" nomodule defer></script>

p.s. Sorry, I now see it is in dev version.

[dgrammatiko]

I have Joomla 4 Beta 7 and in source I see this:

You can try the nightly: https://developer.joomla.org/nightly-builds.html

[Joomlaplates]

Sorry, until Joomla 4 is ready to use, BS 6 is avaiable... lol
It reminds me to a guy which is always waiting for a faster CPU, he is always waiting for the next generation. Finally he never bought something.