Alpha Strike Conversion Feedback #3961
Comments
HammerGS
added
the
Alpha Strike Conversion
|
Concerning MEL on Meks: I see that ASCE (=Commanders Edition) says that only Meks with MEL may make physical melee attacks. If that is the final word, ASC p127 should receive errata (says that PM and CV may have MEL). Also, ASCE p45 (states that PM may make Standard or Melee physical attacks). |
|
HBK-4G (Shakir), the AC/10 shows up in the AC special ability calculation as 1/1/0, but then says no AC. |
|
Kage Light Battle Armor, with squad weapons (where only one suit has the weapon), that weapon should not be multiplied by troop factor. it just counts once. |
|
Lexan Surveillance Helo lists 15/23 as movement,
looks like we're going to change that. CVs and SVs can get/use MEL. (yes, PMs can use MEL). |
|
Trireme (CS) is a Support vehicle with SZ3, so it should get LG. |
|
Battle Armor not including Troop Factor on IF calculation. Example Undine Battle Armor (Upgrade)(Sqd4). It's giving 0* for IF (versus 1 at long range) because it's not included troop factor. |
|
Null-signature system should not give ECM, just STL. WER-LF-005 for example. |
|
Koshi (Mist Lynx) Z is coming up with 12"j. It has 6/9/5 movement, should be 12"/10"j. not sure why that is not catching it. |
This appears to be a data error (missing the booby trap) |
It already has. |
So, I'll leave the conversion as is (?) |
|
yes, leave CVs/SVs/PMs getting MEL. |
I believe I mentioned this to Hammer a while ago and there may have been an official comment on it at the time but I don't remember and I can't find it on discord. In the end I believe I followed Mordel in the interpretation of ASC p93/94 where Modular armor is listed explicitly for walk/cruise but not at all for jump movement. So it's converted as if it were 6/9/6 with mod armor only accounted for for walk. I gather it's supposed to convert as 6/9/5, so I'll change it. |
|
I’m not an expert on modular armor, if that’s the concern here we should check with others.
…-joshua
________________________________
From: SJuliez ***@***.***>
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2022 10:49:08 AM
To: MegaMek/megamek ***@***.***>
Cc: NCKestrel ***@***.***>; Comment ***@***.***>
Subject: Re: [MegaMek/megamek] Alpha Strike Conversion Feedback (Issue #3961)
Koshi (Mist Lynx) Z is coming up with 12"j. It has 6/9/5 movement, should be 12"/10"j
I believe this I mentioned this to Hammer a while ago and there may have been an official comment on it at the time but I don't remember and I can't find it on discord. In the end I believe I followed Mordel in the interpretation of ASC p93/94 where Modular armor is listed explicitly for walk/cruise but not at all for jump movement. So it's converted as if it were 6/9/6 with mod armor only accounted for for walk. I gather it's supposed to convert as 6/9/5, so I'll change it.
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub<#3961 (comment)>, or unsubscribe<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/A4BDHUAW5LKFFQAXSQEYSKLWHJY7JANCNFSM6AAAAAARYFLLWI>.
You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: ***@***.***>
|
This is a report weakness, it shows the values as 1/1/0 but in reality they are heat-adjusted to 0.8125/0.8125/0, which gets rounded to tenth to 0.9/0.9/0, denying it AC. I should improve the report for this. |
|
I've got fixes pending for the data identified issues. |
I think 0.93 is rounding up to the hundredth. Rounding up to tenth is 0.929 -> 1.0 |
|
BLR-1S, HBK (Shakir) agreed on both. ignore those reports :). |
|
Osteon U isn't including Artemis V in the damage calculations for the TOR. |
|
BA with armored gloves are getting a free AP weapon. I think this is a data issue, where MM adds the auto-rifle so they can fire with the default AP weapon. But it's then getting counted for 0.05, and then the BA manipulator is getting a .1 in addition. |
|
Similar report issue with REL. EMP-8L REL damage says 1.26/1.26/- and no REL. which is correct but doesn't show the heat-adjustment that makes it no REL. |
This rule has been removed in the errata p.10. |
ASCE says: |
OK this is corrected but the rules don't say how to handle an S damage value of 0* for heat conversion. |
No. Just means I was wrong. Ignore that one. |
Ah, 0* should be no HT. |
|
Advanced SRM-2 should be 0.4. The +1 to the cluster table takes it to 8, which is 2 missiles to make it 0.4. examples are the Gnome Battle Armors. |
|
ARTBA special is not being applied to the Centaur Battle Armor http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Card/6651?skill=4 And overall, amazing job at adding the conversions to Megamek. Thanks guys. |
What version are you using, we've pushed fixes into 49.12 and have more fixes pending for the next release. |
|
49.12 Just downloaded it. For Aerospace fighter conversion. |
|
49.12 |
|
I'm not sure if we are doing this but errata for Minelayers. "For Battle Armor, the numerical value is equal to the number of mine dispensers per suit, not for the whole squad." |
This is corrected in 49.13 |
|
@HammerGS The MDS one is certainly incorrect. Looking at the BAs with mines it seems that they're using different ways of representing the mines. Some have "Conventional Mine (Body)" for each trooper, some have "Conventional mine" once, some have "Conventional Mine (Body)" on the squad. Ideally we'd have a Mine Dispenser, right? And even if we have to use the mines themselves, I'd prefer to update the conversion code when the mine is repesented equally on all BA. |
|
Another tweak Mordel spotted. C3 Emergency Master should be 2 MHQ (MM currently has it as 1 and Mordel have it as 0). |
|
@NCKestrel Can you enlighten me again how the Boomerang Spotter Plane http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3854 gets its PV of 9. I can't see what's missing in MM's calculation. Also, I can change STOL units to get the VSTOL special but I'd need to know if this has limitations or goes for all units. |
|
Minor problem found. the Bridge Layer special. Megamek is adding it once, the MUL is allowing multiples of this special ability on the same unit. http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4872/prometheus-combat-support-bridgelayer |
|
This is something that should be confirmed with the MUL. They have had errors before. |
I think it might be covered by this. https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=40232.msg1949103#msg1949103 |
|
Heh. Well the BRID thing is no longer an issue... the poor Prometheus got ninja nerfed and now only has BRID |
|
Noticed a 1 point PV difference between The Ares ARS-V1C "Aphrodite" between Megameklab 49.14 (79pv) and the MUL. (80pv) |
Best to post our calculations on the CGL site - https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,80685.0.html and check with them. |
|
It looks like Field Gun-equipped infantry are completely skipping their personal weapons and secondary weapons when calculating damage; I'll double-check by recreating some MUL units to confirm. |
|
95% sure that's how its supposed to be. But would need to check the forums and errata to be sure. |
8 years old, but this forum post says: Edit: of course this means the "Field Gun Infantry" is a 5/5/0 unit with AC 3/3/0 for 16PV, which seems... exceptional. |
We’ve worked very closely with the MUL team and AS gurus. I’d be surprised if this got missed. |
|
Yeah, MM is fine there. I was corrected years after that post.
…-joshua
________________________________
From: Dave N ***@***.***>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2023 1:43:53 PM
To: MegaMek/megamek ***@***.***>
Cc: NCKestrel ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***>
Subject: Re: [MegaMek/megamek] Alpha Strike Conversion Feedback (Issue #3961)
95% sure that's how its supposed to be. But would need to check the forums and errata to be sure.
8 years old, but this forum post<https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48907.0> says: "1) Augment. Calculate the infantry weapons, including using the troop factor table. Then add in the field gun damage. The field gun damage is not affected by troop factor."
Edit: of course this means the "Field Gun Infantry" is a 5/5/0 unit with AC 3/3/0 for 16PV, which seems... exceptional.
We’ve worked very closely with the MUL team and AS gurus. I’d be surprised if this got missed.
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub<#3961 (comment)>, or unsubscribe<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/A4BDHUDRRAHO4PQOBKUKGS3XZSTFTANCNFSM6AAAAAARYFLLWI>.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>
|
Okay, it looks like MM is producing the same values as MUL for Field Gun Infantry. But something is wonky with Field Artillery, because MUL has this: but the latest MM code produces this: I believe Field Artillery Infantry is still supposed to get its personal weapon damage, as per the MUL entry. |
|
@Sleet01 Did you check MM's unit data? Especially with CI and BA there's always a chance that our unit is not what the TRO says. |
I've been trying to, but it looks like someone is going through and updating the card images 😿
Which is fine if it's correct, but how would one even know? |
|
… -joshua
________________________________
From: Sleet01 ***@***.***>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2023 9:09:50 PM
To: MegaMek/megamek ***@***.***>
Cc: NCKestrel ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***>
Subject: Re: [MegaMek/megamek] Alpha Strike Conversion Feedback (Issue #3961)
I've been trying to, but it looks like someone is going through and updating the card images 😿
The card I copied yesterday is now different, and no longer displays the attack value or the same PV:
[image]<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/22018319/266883928-d2cb3545-378a-4575-8fab-eb3fe218d4ec.png>
Which is fine if it's correct, but how would one even know?
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub<#3961 (comment)>, or unsubscribe<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/A4BDHUBRVHSNHPNREA2N7RDXZZQF5ANCNFSM6AAAAAARYFLLWI>.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>
|
Apologies if I'm beating a dead horse, but A) that refers to field guns, not field artillery (which, admittedly, may not even be a real distinction), but B) in AS, field artillery have no damage value outside of their Artillery attack. It seems incongruous that artillery infantry units that retain some of their primary and secondary weapon attack values in CBT lose that value completely in AS. |
|
Well... the PV of that alpha strike card lines up. The CAR value in the MUL doesnt (the mechanized wheeled platoon is 20 tons by itself... add in a 20 ton sniper...). And I can't find it in the source book they say its from after a quick scan which is always fun. As for field artillery not getting damage values, Not worth worrying about at the abstraction level of alpha strike. better to streamline the rules as much as possible to prevent the bloat of dealing with every little exception. There are a number of things that don't get translated perfectly into alpha strike. That's just one of them. |
In this case, the Field Artillery Infantry not getting any damage line values whatsoever is the exception. They get personal and secondary weapon values in CBT (albeit at a reduce level because part of the platoon is managing the artillery piece) and, as far as I can tell, Artillery-equipped Infantry units used to get their attack value converted; it's only since the change to handle Field Guns (a separate beast in CBT) went in last December that our handling of Field Artillery units changed. Think of it this way: if the AS version of the CPLT-C3 has both a damage line and an ARTAIS special, why are we converting Field Artillery Infantry differently? Edit: Battle Armor Infantry mounting BA Tube Artillery also calculates its Damage Line separately from ART* damage. Doing the same for Conventional Infantry would bring CI back in line with BA, and would not go against the ruling and new errata (above) as it relates to Field Guns. |
Opening a thread to track unit errors CGL is finding while reviewing the AS conversion.
AP weapon mounts on Battle get counted as rifles (like conventional infantry) and added to damage calculations. example, Achileus Light Battle Armor David should include the damage for conventional infantry rifles at short range and bring the damage up to 1 instead of 0*.
vehicles need to be checked for JMPW. Kanga should have JMPW1 for example.
SHLD missing from Black Knights (BLK-NT-2Y for example)
Possible error with TOR calculations are not including Artemis when equipped with it. example AV1-OU, Osteon U
(Data) - BNZ-X missing BT, and definitely explosive (shouldn't have ENE)
REAR weapons only use their own heat (not all weapons). BLR-1G (Red Corsair) should have REAR2/2/- for example.
BLR-1S should not have LRM1/1/1. It shows the calculation for LRM at M correctly, with 0.929 that rounds to nearest tenth as .93. it doesn't have 1 at medium, so no LRM.
AMS doesn't have a direction/firing arc, so it shouldn't be in turret. (Beagle C3I as example)Aerospace fighters shouldn't have OMNI (can't carry mechanized battle armor) they aerospace can have IT, they can't have OMNI.
MM's AS conversions are not including HT for conventional infantry as in the conversion report shows it being calculated, but it then doesn't show on card it's not included in the PV calculation either.
Centipede Scout Car (TAG). is one of the rare units that does more damage to rear (rear-mounted flamer) than front (no weapons). so the 0* should be "main" damage, and no REAR special.CRD-7W: MMLs have artemis, so it can't qualify for SRM or LRM.
non-'Mech units can't get MEL (engineering vehicles)HBK-4G (Shakir), the AC/10 shows up in the AC special ability calculation as 1/1/0, but then says no AC.
Kage Light Battle Armor, with squad weapons (where only one suit has the weapon), that weapon should not be multiplied by troop factor. it just counts once.
Trireme (CS) is a Support vehicle with SZ3, so it should get LG.
Battle Armor not including Troop Factor on IF calculation. Example Undine Battle Armor (Upgrade)(Sqd4). It's giving 0* for IF (versus 1 at long range) because it's not included troop factor.
Null-signature system should not give ECM, just STL. WER-LF-005 for example.
Koshi (Mist Lynx) Z is coming up with 12"j. It has 6/9/5 movement, should be 12"/10"j. not sure why that is not catching it.
BA with armored gloves are getting a free AP weapon. I think this is a data issue, where MM adds the auto-rifle so they can fire with the default AP weapon. But it's then getting counted for 0.05, and then the BA manipulator is getting a .1 in addition. Might be simpler if MM is always going to have the auto-rifle added with armored glove units. to just make it a 0.05 for the armed gloves in your calculations? PAB-28 for example.
For the Masakari G, the LB-20-X should be affected by the targeting computer. Has Y in the TC column (p104 ASC).
Rocket Launchers damage is already divided by 10, you dno't need to divide them again by 10. On Battle ARmor, Theseus KillShot for example. Rocket Launcher 5 should hit with 3(?) rockets for 3 damage, and 0.3 for being one shot. (ASC table p112 lists then as 0.29 becuase of to-hit penalty as well). They don't have the * for one-shot, because they're always one-shot and already calculated for being one-shot.
Centaur Battle ARmor not getting RCA special.
Djinn Terrorizer not getting RFA.
Constable Pacification Suit [Sensor] not getting RCN (from improved sensors).
Black Wolf (LBX) should qualify for FLK from his BA LB-X.
Destrier Siege Vehicle has two IS ER Medium Lasers in Turret (and AMS and Long Tom). it's getting TUR (2/2/0) by adding in light machine guns from vehicular sponsoon turrets, but ASC p100 says to not count sponsoon turrets (and I can't find an errata negating that).
Fa Shih are missing MDS(2?).
Fenrir (Motral) have IF-?.
Field Gun Infantry can get AC (unit called Field Gun Infantry).
GALS-2GLSA should not have both CASE,ENE. Just ENE.
Combat Vehicles should all have SRCH.
Ares (Plasma) is missing TUR(HT1/1/1) for the turreted plasma cannon.
Conventional infantry of the LRM, MG, SRM and Flamer types are slower (for most infantry types except tracked?), TW p213. This doesn't seem to be reflected in the conversions for those.
Filed Gun Infnatry (motorized batteries). should have 3/3 and AC3/3. 6 light ac/5s at .5 each = 3. they each have a full ton of ammo, so no low ammo modifier. not sure where the 2/2 and AC2/2 are coming from. there's also the auto-rifles and particle cannon?
Ogre Battle Armor (sqd5). Has 4"j. it has no jump movement. for some reason MM is listing it's move as 2/2 in the summary with W/R and no jump, and the TRO reads just ground MP:2 and jump MP:0. (Data issue)
Disregard ammo weapons that lack ammo
Correct Advanced SRM 2 damage
MDS on BA (Data + Conversion)
C3 EM has 2 MHQ
Fighters without weapons don't get ENE
Aero units with STOL gear get VSTOL (Awaiting errata)
Callisto Battle Armor has a squad mount ER Medium Laser. for some reason, it's being inlcuded in short range damage, but nothing for medium range. Callisto Battle Armor A [Bearhunter] is one example. it's got a 0 for medium range, the AS conversion report says none for medium rnage damage calculations.
The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: